Simultaneous Battles.. Or Not?

Original Axis & Allies 1984-2004
Saburo Sakai
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:13 pm

Simultaneous Battles.. Or Not?

Post by Saburo Sakai » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:26 pm

So this is what happened to me in a game. I am Axis and on R1 Russia attacks Baltic sea containing 1 Trn and 1 Sub with 1 Sub and 1 Ftr. In round 1 of the battle the Russian fighter hits but the sub misses. Both German units hit. At Axis & Allies Members Club (AAMC) the JAG has ruled that the German sub hit doesn't count because the defence rolls are done column by column. The Trn rolled a 1 and hit the Russian sub, leaving the Sub with only a fighter to hit, which it cannot, so the hit is wasted.

I have argued that the Battles in all versions of A&A, including 2nd Edition are simultaneous which means that (with the exception of attacking subs) all attackers and defenders fire simultaneously. Therefore, each of the defender's hits must be counted and applied and the Russians have suffered two casualties.

The JAG states that the rules clearly state that rolls must be done column by column.

Who is right? Larry, can you help us? JAG even invoked your name in saying that my interpretation was wrong.

I may be wrong, but if so, it leads to the following bizarre occurences:

1. If a Sub/Trn defends against a Ftr/Sub attack and both the Sub and Trn get a hit, the sub's hit won't count but if the sub were defending with an AC the sub's hit would count because it's column comes up before the AC defending on a 3.

2. Based on the principle of simultaneous firing, all defenders are deemed to fire at the same time as the attackers but based on the JAG's interpretation the defenders do not fire at the same time as each other (I don't know how that works??)

My view is that the order of rolling "rules" were simply put in place to set up a procedure that would go a long way to ensuring that errors were not made with casualties or the number of attacking or defending rolls. In all subsequent A&A games it was clear that every attacker and every defender (other than first shot sub casualties) gets to roll their shot and that every hit is counted. I believe the rule is the same in A&A 2nd Edition but just not as clearly written.

Larry, if you're out there, I'd just like to say that I'm a huge fan of A&A, I think it's great that you continue to be involved with the A&A community and I would love to hear your viewpoints on this question.

SS

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GROGnads
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YES they should BOTH have HIT

Post by GROGnads » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:30 pm

From what you've described, then YOU are by all 'rights', CORRECT! ONLY if a SUB(s) were 'attacking', would there be a *Special* Combat first-shot resolution, in which THAT would be applicable! Otherwise, ALL Combat is considered as 'simultaneous' no matter WHAT 'others' may claim or 'think'. As long as you HIT, then they will have to 'apply' those to whatever 'pieces' are available. Let's look at it this 'way' then, if your SUB 'first-shot', then it would be APPLIED to just the 'Sub', while the Transport would then HIT the Airplane. As it stands, THEY 'attacked' with their SUB 'missing' his SHOT, so now as the Defender YOU will then get to FIRE both of yours before resolving any HITS. Whomever 'stated' otherwise is WRONG WRONG WRONG! man! do they ever 'think' this stuff out?
:shock:
"You had to 'GO'!?! Now we ALL have to 'GO'!" BIG Joe-"Kelly's Heroes"-the MOVIE

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Krieghund
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Post by Krieghund » Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:02 am

Saburo, you and GROGnads are right. Fire is simultaneous (except in the case of sub first strikes), so the casualties must be resolved in order to achieve maximum hits (transport hits fighter, sub hits sub).

However being "right" may not help you in this instance, as the clubs tend to interpret the rules as they see fit.
A&A Developer and Playtester

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Larry
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Post by Larry » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:05 am

Hello Saburo - Due to the make up of the German forces, a sub and transport, each piece must roll separately. I say this because it is known that the sub cannot hit an aircraft and it’s hit can only be credited to the enemy (Russian sub). Therefore it becomes necessary for each defensive roll to be identified. For example – “I’m rolling for my transport against the fighter (or against the sub)”. The defending sub can only roll against the Russian sub, so that should be understood. Tricky stuff… Using columns to dictate firing order is ok but only if the rule is stated and played the same way by all. Looking at the columns the first roll would be for the sub… and the 2nd roll would be for the transport.

The sub should have rolled first and the transport 2nd. If both dice were rolled at the same time and column rules applied, it must be assumed that the first shot was made by the sub. I say this because looking at the columns on the battleboard the defensive sub comes before the defensive transport (reading from left to right). This is true in both the classic A&A and the Revised version. Thus the first roll, made by the sub is a hit. The only Russian target that can take the hit is the sub. The defending transport get the 2nd hit and it’s hit must go to the Russian fighter.

Krieghund and GROGnads - thanks for you great help in fielding these questions. You guys know your stuff.

Saburo Sakai
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:13 pm

Post by Saburo Sakai » Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:19 pm

Larry,

Thanks very much for your quick response. I very much appreciate it and would have even if you didn't agree with me :D

SS

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GROGnads
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Thank YOU guys very much also

Post by GROGnads » Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:23 pm

I'm just glad that the ''OFFICIAL'' 'stamp of approval' was given on this, so as to silence this poor guy's disclaimants as well. I'm fairly certain that HE did make his 'serperate DIE rolls' on these, although WE have often utilized different COLORS of 'dice', and then just 'designated' which COLOR was being 'rolled' for WHAT pieces, in some instances when ROLLING them altogether. Some folks just like to ROLL lots of 'dice' all at once and this is one 'method' for them, in which to accomplish that. The 'Ruling' that was 'given' is gravely MISTAKEN in assuming that the 'Transport' HAD to 'Hit' the Sub, while the SUB then couldn't 'Hit' the Aircraft! They EACH get to FIRE, and if a 'Hit' is acheived, THEN those are 'applied' once the ROUND is over! Had there been just '2' SUBS present, then YES neither of 'them' is allowed to 'Hit' upon Aircraft. They NEED to 'correct' this immediately and have it brought to their 'Attentions' ASAP. I just 'wonder' how they go about 'resolving' Anti Aircraft 'die rolls' after finding THIS out!
"You had to 'GO'!?! Now we ALL have to 'GO'!" BIG Joe-"Kelly's Heroes"-the MOVIE

BlackWatch
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Post by BlackWatch » Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:57 pm

Larry wrote:Hello Saburo - Due to the make up of the German forces, a sub and transport, each piece must roll separately. I say this because it is known that the sub cannot hit an aircraft and it’s hit can only be credited to the enemy (Russian sub). Therefore it becomes necessary for each defensive roll to be identified. For example – “I’m rolling for my transport against the fighter (or against the sub)”. The defending sub can only roll against the Russian sub, so that should be understood. Tricky stuff… Using columns to dictate firing order is ok but only if the rule is stated and played the same way by all. Looking at the columns the first roll would be for the sub… and the 2nd roll would be for the transport.

The sub should have rolled first and the transport 2nd. If both dice were rolled at the same time and column rules applied, it must be assumed that the first shot was made by the sub. I say this because looking at the columns on the battleboard the defensive sub comes before the defensive transport (reading from left to right). This is true in both the classic A&A and the Revised version. Thus the first roll, made by the sub is a hit. The only Russian target that can take the hit is the sub. The defending transport get the 2nd hit and it’s hit must go to the Russian fighter.

Krieghund and GROGnads - thanks for you great help in fielding these questions. You guys know your stuff.
Hi Larry,

I hate to contradict the creator of the game, but in MB 2nd edition rules, the columns are rolled in order of hit value (with one minor exception, namely BB support shots). For defending naval units, I think you would roll for the 1's column, then 2's, 3's and 4's in that order.

First MB rule quote:
3. Attacker fires. The attacker rolls 1 die for each attacking unit. Notice the battle board is divided into 4 columns. Resolve combat in Column 1 first, then Column 2 and so on. For example, if Column I had 4 infantry, you would roll 4 dice to fire. Infantry attack at a die roll of "1," so each roll of "1" would be a hit...
Second MB rule quote:
4. Defender fires. The defender rolls 1 die for each defending unit (casualties included) and resolves combat, as the attacker did above...
"as the attacker did above" has been interpreted in all the online clubs for years that the defenders also roll by columns, beginning with the lowest value column first. In a naval battle, this would mean that transports (1st column) fire before submarines (2nd column).
"Using columns to dictate firing order is ok but only if the rule is stated and played the same way by all. "
The rule is stated in the MB printed rules, which the clubs try to follow as closely as possible in their interpretations.

Thanks for your input and help.

BlackWatch

BlackWatch
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:51 am

Re: Thank YOU guys very much also

Post by BlackWatch » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:08 pm

GROGnads wrote:I'm just glad that the ''OFFICIAL'' 'stamp of approval' was given on this, so as to silence this poor guy's disclaimants as well. I'm fairly certain that HE did make his 'serperate DIE rolls' on these, although WE have often utilized different COLORS of 'dice', and then just 'designated' which COLOR was being 'rolled' for WHAT pieces, in some instances when ROLLING them altogether. Some folks just like to ROLL lots of 'dice' all at once and this is one 'method' for them, in which to accomplish that. The 'Ruling' that was 'given' is gravely MISTAKEN in assuming that the 'Transport' HAD to 'Hit' the Sub, while the SUB then couldn't 'Hit' the Aircraft! They EACH get to FIRE, and if a 'Hit' is acheived, THEN those are 'applied' once the ROUND is over! Had there been just '2' SUBS present, then YES neither of 'them' is allowed to 'Hit' upon Aircraft. They NEED to 'correct' this immediately and have it brought to their 'Attentions' ASAP. I just 'wonder' how they go about 'resolving' Anti Aircraft 'die rolls' after finding THIS out!
Defending AA guns are given a special privilege of firing a defensive shot before an attacker gets to fire. If they hit, the attacker cannot fire the hit aircraft units at all - they are dead without ever firing a shot.

BB support shots fire before any other attacking units fire in an amphibious assault.

In short, there are many explicit exceptions, but there is also an explicit firing order both on attack and defense. The rules also allow each player to pick his own losses.

If you defend in the Baltic Sz on Round 1, your transport must fire first. If it hits, the attacker must choose which attacking piece is lost BEFORE you roll your defending submarine shot.

If the attacker came with one sea unit and air units, and your transport hits, the attacker is free to choose his sea unit as a loss. Your sub then has nothing to fire at.
BlackWatch

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