Simultaneous Battles.. Or Not?

Original Axis & Allies 1984-2004
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GROGnads
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Get the CAN opener READY

Post by GROGnads » Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:25 pm

So, it IS to be considered as a 'legit' MOVE in this regards? Well then, it will certainly become a ''bone of contention'' amongst many, as it APPEARS to be a ''cheap-ass & chintzy cheat'' method of which I am SURE that many will 'bring up' in times to come. As for ''rolling ALL of the DICE'' at the same TIME, then YEAH! we 'do' that in OUR 'games'! We have many different SETS of multi-color DICE for just this purpose! For us, it is in the ''spirit of the games'' for which is MOST important, while I will INSIST that this 'aspect' be given MORE 'considerations' than the usual. For ''Official'' plays, then I'd expect there to become some very disappointed people when they 'discover' THIS being 'used' against them in the meantime.

As a CONSTANT 'reminder' and rejoinder to MANY, these aren't ''set in stone'' and certainly CAN become 'improved upon' or REVISED, sort of what DID 'happen' in the latest version huh? gee, I wonder why?...can YOU 'figure it out' as well? YES, we've ALWAYS been doing that ourselves, and for which is WHY I have 'created' many additional PIECES and 'Rules' to go along with those! Then we'll 'playtest' them and tweak those up or down in abilities if they're too STRONG or NOT strong enough and the like. It is also WHY there is an active and vocal 'Group' who are working on yet some MORE 'revisions' and expansions STILL!
"You had to 'GO'!?! Now we ALL have to 'GO'!" BIG Joe-"Kelly's Heroes"-the MOVIE

BloodWasher
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Post by BloodWasher » Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:30 pm

Every basement playgroup has its own house rules, created in an attempt to improve the game or from misinterpretation of the printed rules. As long as everyone accepts these variations there is no problem.

However, when players from different basements get together, as happens in the PBEM clubs, there are aften problems. Each group believes they are the true purveyors of the honourable game, and refuse to change the way they play. The only way to solve the dilemma is to insist everyone play under a common ruleset, and most logically that is the ruleset as printed and distributed with the gameboard.

I am not casting judgment on house rules, or personal opinion on how the game could be improved. These variations may lead to improvement and new versions of the game. But to play within large PBEM clubs, everyone needs to play by the same rule set, and for now that is still the printed 2nd edition rules.

And your apology is accepted, GROGnads.

Blood

BlackWatch
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Post by BlackWatch » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:02 am

Thanks for the kind words Larry and for all the hard work you did concocting the game in the first place. Thanks too to Bloodwasher for stepping in here.
BlackWatch

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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:03 am

Here is how this would have unfolded according to Adlertags suggestions.
Always roll the high value columns first (4-3-2-1)

ATTACKERS ACTIONS
Action 1 (column 4)- Russian sub rolled first and missed. – no casualty :lol:
(subs roll 4 or less to surface ships not escorted by a matching destroyer.)
(subs are not allowed to attack other subs, since this is ahistoric.)

Action 2 (column 3)- Russian fighter rolled and hits. German player moves his transport or sub below the casualty line. What ever he selects does not really matter here, he will still roll back.

DEFENDERS ACTIONS
Action 3 (column 4)- German player can't roll for his sub , since subs are not allowed to attack other subs or aircrafts.

Action 4 (column 1)- German player rolls for his Tranny, it hits and Russian player must choose his sub or fighter as casualti.

RESULTS - :? :? :?
Let units with high combat value roll dice before the low-value trash, and face a more realistic outcome, and fewer issues.

May I suggest we spend less time arguing and spend more time seeking improved doctrines.
After all … it is the ultimate game we all seek . 8) 230

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GROGnads
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YOURS is 'accepted' as well

Post by GROGnads » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:56 pm

Certainly, any GROUP is to be expected to 'abide' by whatever RULES they wish to conjure UP or deem 'needed'. Acceptance is another matter altogether, yet IF this were 'mentioned' prominently AND fully explained, then I hardly DOUBT that many would condone it. So, get on the BALL and FIX this, as it has been so readily 'remedied' because of this 'discussion'! If ANYONE has to 'resort' to such underhanded 'methods', then they're certainly NOT what I would consider as ''good sports'' and should be AVOIDED. I've seen this sort of 'Rules Lawyership' propigate too many times and for which it doesn't enhance the game's PLAY, but detracts from the FUN of it. I'll reiterate about how UNFAIR that this becomes, and YOU can 'save your breath' about the ''Life's blah blah blah...'' routine then. We'll keep on utilizing OUR 'method' and you can keep on using YOURS, for which I'm sure we'll 'see' just WHOSE is perceived as BETTER! huh? Good Gaming(if that's possible) in the meantime.

*NOTE*-ole 'Larry' did in fact AGREE with our 'definition' on THIS, in 'case' some of YOU missed that! He might be 'relenting' upon these due to his 'advanced aging', but it doesn't change the FACT!
"You had to 'GO'!?! Now we ALL have to 'GO'!" BIG Joe-"Kelly's Heroes"-the MOVIE

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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:28 am

Mr GROG, I did not understand shit of what you tryed so say.
If you are with me, post an happy smilie.
If you are against me, post an angry smilie.

This is the commie-style MB printed rule played by the PBEM clubs.
This rule favour the weak and cheap units.
MB rule quote:
3. Attacker fires. The attacker rolls 1 die for each attacking unit. Notice the battle board is divided into 4 columns. Resolve combat in Column 1 first, then Column 2 and so on.

This is how the rule would have looked if written by an patriotic American .
Lets call it the "Survival of the fittest" rule.
This rule will favour the strong, expensive units with high combat value.

"Right stuff" rule quote:
8) (Resolve combat in column 4 first, then column 3 and so on.) 8)


If I understand mr. GROG's last post right, he is against any system or order, wich is just fine, as long as he play solitarie in his basement, or play with other friends in his basement, and they all agree in mr. GROG's way of solving problems.

The problems start when playing in EPBM clubs. Or against strangers/aliens. (from PEBM clubs.)

MB rule quote:
"Using columns to dictate firing order is ok but only if the rule is stated and played the same way by all. "
BlackBlood quote:
The rule is stated in the MB printed rules, wich the clubs try to follow as closely as possible in their interpretations.

BloodWasher
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A final word in closing

Post by BloodWasher » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:06 pm

Just to remind everyone, this thread started as a discussion on the interpretation of the printed MB rules, and how they should be applied. It was NOT a thread regarding how the game should be played.

However, some respondants have tried to make it into an argument over who plays by better rules, claiming that one way is superior to the others. It is certainly true that the 2nd ed game can be improved upon, with a better map, better units, and new rules. And only through play testing of new variations can these be discovered, so this type of experimentation should be encouraged.

But while it may be true that a better game is played if adlertag's "survival of the fittest" rule is invoked, it is not the way the 2nd ed rules are written. And since PBEM clubs need a common, well known rule set to allow players from many nations across the world to sit down and immediately start playing, the 2nd ed rules are most practical. What is impractical is to start changing the rules to try an accomodate what each individual player feels "should" be the rules. That would only lead to anarchy.

BloodWasher

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Krieghund
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Post by Krieghund » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:35 pm

Whoa, I leave town for a weekend and a free-for-all starts! :lol:

Obviously this particular rule is written a bit ambiguously, to allow two sides to be argued so passionately. In twenty years it never occurred to me to resolve each column's casualties separately, but I guess this is the proper procedure for "Classic" A&A. I always assumed that since the attacker's and defender's fire were simultaneous, all fire within those subdivisions was simultaneous as well - an easy assumption to make.
A&A Developer and Playtester

"War is much more fun when you're winning!" - General Martok

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