Why can't factories, AA guns be removed?

Axis & Allies Revised by Avalon Hill. Released in 2004.
Axis & Allies is a classic game of war, economics, and global strategy. Victory goes not only to the team that conquers its opponents on the field of battle, but also to the individual player who seizes the most enemy territory.
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Builder_Chris
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Post by Builder_Chris » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:24 pm

timerover51 wrote:
One option for Industrial Centers that I do not think that I have seen mentioned is having graduated ones. A basic IC costing 5 IPC that produces infantry and artillery, an intermediate one costing 10 IPC that adds armor and aircraft to the production line, and a full capacity one costing 15 IPC that builds ships as well. This way a player can incrementally build IC, closer to what was done, and also tailor the IC to what can actually be produced.
Kreighund wrote:
Sounds similar to something I proposed back in 2004:
I’d actually like to see three “levels” of ICs capable of production as follows:
Level 1 – all land units and transports
Level 2 – Level 1 units plus fighters, subs and destroyers
Level 3 - anything
Timerover51 wrote:
Either system of graduated IC would work mine leans more to the historical and yours leans more to the playability side.

Now that’s an interesting idea; graduated IC’s.

Trying something like that would eliminate the need to restructure the existing IPC value(s) of territories or the cost of units and might better represent some of the finer details of “real world war production” that several other posts have touched on with out “rewriting” the rules TOO much and it sounds like it shouldn’t bog down game play.

I also like the idea of an IPC Bonus. Adding it to a territories income value sounds like a good way to represent the “real world” added benefit that constructing an IC would give a territory. This would obviously not only improve the “financial stability” of the territory that the IC was built in but it would also be improving the Gross National Production of the controlling power by having another “industrialized territory”. Doing this might also help to better imitate the advantages of building new IC’s in remote locations of the world besides just the already obvious strategic one of having a new location from where to mobilize new units.

With graduated IC’s things could be extended a little more towards “imitating reality” while maintaining playability by having to build IC’s in order; build a LVL1 IC in one round, upgrade it into a LVL2 IC in the next round and upgrade it to a LVL3 in the following round. This might help to better represent the reality that ICs “…are not items that are built for 15 IPC and magically appear in a turn. They have been built over many years by concentrations of people’s hard work.” Also, by extending the idea of graduated IC’s being restricted to being built in order by level and the level of the IC restricting the type of units that could be produced and if you look at the fact that the game does not have an official “time scale” but just an arbitrary one of about 3 months, the graduated IC idea may not imitate the reality IL’s point exactly but it may help to make the construction of ICs a little more “realistic” because someone could not drop a factory in a territory one round and pop out a battleship at the end of their next round. It would conceivably take a minimum of four rounds before any sea units could be produced out of a “new IC”.


With all these ideas floating around in my head like a bad dream that I don’t want to go away because it’s too cool to think about, I think I’ve come up with a final answer to the question of “why can’t ICs be destroyed?”

I believe the answer is that they are just TOO BIG. Industrial COMPLEXES (ICs) are not just a few buildings standing within a few city blocks of one another in one city; rather they are Industrial CENTERS (ICS) with several buildings spread out over several cities, towns and villages across an entire territory.

So, while pondering the entire IC question, and thumbing through tons of war photos of bombed out cities and towns and factories, I’ve come to realize that they can’t be destroyed because they are too big but that they should be able to become “war torn and damaged” some how along the way to being destroyed. I think I might have also stumbled across a way to represent that.

Adding some minor changes to the rules concerning IC’s, making it possible for ICs to be “destroyed” in the broadest sense of the word, may help to better represent the reason they cant be “destroyed” and may help to better represent the scale and destructiveness of war upon an industrialized territory while still not over complicating the game or slowing down the flow of it too much.

By making it so that IC’s are able to receive “sustainable damages” (IC Damage) when subjected to rocket strikes, bombing raids and even combat in the territory that the IC resides in, this would create the possibility of having the IPC value of that “industrialized region” reduced to a state of devalued disrepair and an other wise “war torn” condition and making the IC’s vulnerable to the possibility of ultimately being deemed “useless” for further war production until they are “repaired” or “rebuilt”.

So any way, I think I’ve come up with a way to do all of this while not overly complicating the rules concerning IC’s or leaving them like they are; under explained and overly simplified.
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Builder_Chris
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Post by Builder_Chris » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:28 pm

So I’ve rewritten the “appendix 1: unit profiles description” for IC’s to read like this:


Industrial Centers:
Description: Industrial Centers (ICs) represent the territorial wide infrastructures necessary to sustain and supply a Powers war production; they are the locations from which new units can be produced.
ICs represent;
…The mining and farming towns required to produce the raw resources such as iron ore, copper, wool, dairy and produce, etc…
…The cities and factories that are required to convert those resources into commodities such as steel, rubber, cloth, gun powder, leather, etc…
…the assembly plants and shipyards required to convert those commodities into military equipment such as tanks, aircraft, ships, munitions, etc…
…the transportation networks required to move these resources and commodities to and from rural and industrialized area(s) such as railways, highways, shipping companies, trucking companies, etc…
…the civilian populations needed for the large numbers of trained workers and military personnel
…the public works necessary to sustain the populations, towns, cities and industries with such necessities as electrical power plants, waste & water treatment facilities, housing, health care and safety facilities, etc…


Cost: 5, 10 or 15
Attack: -
Defense: -
Move: -

Special AbilitiesCannot Attack, Defend, or Move: An IC can never attack, defend, or move. It cannot be transported. It is never placed on the battle board.

Industrialization/ Income Bonus: An IC in any territory classifies that territory as an “industrialized territory” and qualifies the territory for an Income Bonus (IB) that increases the income value of that territory, but not the production rate of that territory, by 1, 2 or 3 IPC as designated by the type of IC that was built there. This industrialization represents that the territory has been developed with the entire infrastructure needed to be an IC.

Building new ICs: There are three Levels of ICs.
LVL 1 LVL 2 LVL 3
Cost…….. 5 LVL 1 + 5 (10) LVL 2 + 5 (15)

Income Bonus…….. 1 2 3

Mobilization Limit… Infantry LVL 1 units LVL 1 & 2 units
Artillery Tanks Sea Units
Air Units


The LVL 1 “Basic IC” costs 5 IPC to build, gives an Income Bonus (IB) of 1 to the territory that it is built in, is restricted by its Mobilization Limit (ML) to producing only Infantry and Artillery.

The LVL 2 “Intermediate IC” costs 5 IPC and upgrades a LVL 1 IC, gives an IB of 2 IPC to the territory that it is built in, is restricted by its ML to producing LVL 1 units plus Tanks, and Air Units

The LVL 3 “Full Production IC” costs 5 IPC and upgrades a LVL 3 IC, gives an IB of 3 IPC to the territory that it is built in, is able to Mobilization any type of unit.

You can place new ICs in any territory that you have controlled since the start of your turn and that has an income value of at least 1. You can never have more than one IC per territory. All new ICs must be built in order of level, starting with LVL 1 and upgrading to levels 2 and 3. Each IC can only have one level built or upgraded per turn and you can only upgrade a LVL 2 IC from a LVL 1 IC that you controlled since the start of your turn and you can only upgrade a LVL 3 IC from a LVL 2 IC that you have controlled since the start of your turn.

Sustainable Damage (IC Damage): IC’s, when struck by rockets, strategic bombing raids or when combat occurs in the territory that the IC resides in are able to receive sustainable damages, also called IC damage. IC damage represents the overall destructive affects of war upon an industrialized territory and does not apply to any territory that has not been industrialized by the presence of an IC.
During the conduct combat phase, rocket strikes declared against a territory with an IC can inflict IC damage by rolling one die. The opponent must put one marker of the attacking power under the IC.
Bombing raids inflict IC damage by rolling one die and putting that number of tokens of the attacking power under the IC.
Combat damage to ICs is determined by the number of cycles of combat that it takes to complete the combat. (Example: Germany attacks the Caucasus and it takes three cycles of combat to finish the combat, if Russia wins or if Germany wins, it does not matter. What matters is it took three cycles of combat to finish the combat so the IC receives 3 points of IC damage. Since Germany attacked, Germany would stack three of their tokens under the IC to show who did the damage. If Germany would have retreated instead of fighting till the combat was finished, what ever number of cycles combat had been fought for , that many cycles would be the IC damage).

IC Damage can only be repaired by its controller at the start of their turn by surrendering to the bank a number of IPC equal to the sum (or portion of the sum) of the IC damage at the start of a players purchase units phase of their turn.

The controller of a damaged IC may elect to repair all, part or none of the damage as they see fit. If the controller of an IC decides to not repair all or part of the IC damage at the start of their turn, any new IC damage received before the start of the controllers next turn is added (stacked) to the previous amount of damage. The total amount of damage that an IC can have stacked under it is three times (3x) its income value with IB bonus, but no single power can inflict more IC damage in one turn than the sum of the IPC bonus plus the territory income value.


Affects of IC Damage:
When the amount of IC Damage is equal to or less than the IC’s Income Bonus, the Income Bonus is reduced by an amount equal to the IC damage and the IC is considered to be war torn and in minor disrepair. Example: The United Kingdom with a LVL 3 IC has an adjusted income value of 11 (8 UK + LVL 3 income bonus) on it is subjected to a bombing raid from Germany and receives 2 points of IC damage. Germany stacks two of its tokens under the IC to show that they damaged the UK for 2 points. UK’s new adjusted income value is 9 and their production rate is still 8.

When the amount of the IC Damage is less than the total sum of the IB plus the income value of the territory but greater than the IB, the income value is reduced by an amount equal to the Income Bonus of he IC and the production rate of the IC is reduced by an amount equal to the difference between the IC Income Bonus minus the IPC bonus and is considered to be war torn and in a state of major disrepair. Example: Germany (income value of 10 has a production rate of ten) with a LVL 3 IC on it has an adjusted income value of 13 (10 Germany + LVL 3 income bonus) on it. It is attacked by a UK bombing raid from the United Kingdom and receives 5 points of IC damage. The UK stacks five of its tokens under the IC to show that they damaged the German IC for 5 points. Germany’s new adjusted income value is reduced by 3 and their production rate is reduced by 2. That same round, UK attacks Germany with an amphibious assault and is held back by Germanys’ defending forces but it took 3 cycles of combat for Germany to do it so Germany would receive 3 points of combat IC damage, making the total amount of IC damage 8. Germany’s income bonus is still only reduced by 3 points but their production is reduced by a total of 5 points. So their adjusted income value is 10 and their adjusted production rate is 5.

When the amount of the IC Damage equals or exceeds the sum of the Income Bonus plus the territories’ income value the IC can no longer produce units and until it it’s repaired, it has been rendered useless for production and is considered to be severely war torn and heavily devastated by war.

At the end of a controllers turn, if an IC that has been rendered useless from IC damage is not repaired, the income value of the territory is reduced by one. A territory whose income value has been reduced by one or more points is considered to be severely devastated by war and nearing poverty.

At the end of a controller’s turn, if an IC whose income value has been reduced to 0 does not have its IC damage repaired the territory shall be deemed entirely devastated by war and completely impoverished.

Any territory that has been severely or entirely devastated can have one point of income value restored to it each turn. To do so a controller must have no IC damage to the IC at the end of the turn that the single point of income value is to be restored in.



Scorched Earth Tactic:
Controllers of ICs that decide to render their IC useless for production may do so by “attacking” their own IC with land units. Units attacking their own ICs can inflict single point of IC damage for each unit in the territory. Example: Russia, not wanting Germany to take control of their LVL 3 Caucasus IC decides in round 4 to attack their IC. They use 5 tanks, 1 artillery and 2 infantry. They can inflict 8 points of damage to that IC but since the max damage that a single power can inflict to an IC in one turn is the sum of the IB Bonus plus the territory income value, they can only inflict 7 points of IC damage.

Mobilization Site: You may mobilize units only in territories containing IC’s you have controlled since the start of your turn and can only produce units of a certain type based off of the level of the IC at the start of your turn. The type of IC you build, LVL 1, 2 or 3 limits the type of units that you may mobilize at it and you can mobilize only a number of units up to the income value of the territory containing the IC before the addition of any IPC Bonus. (Example: a Basic IC, LVL 1 is built in Eastern Canada on round one and adds one (1) IPC Bonus point to its income value, making its affective income value 4, but it can still only mobilize no more than three (3) units per turn. At the start of round 2 the controller of this IC decides to upgrade it to a level 2 IC, but it’s not until the start of the 3rd round that level 2 IC units can be produced out of it.)

IB bonuses do not increase the number of units that can be produced from an IC, but they do increase the number of IPC that you collect for controlling that territory by their IB amount. You can place IC’s in any territory that you have controlled since the start of your turn and that has an income value of at least 1. There can never be more than one IC per territory.

Usable by Invading Forces: If a territory is captured, an IC there is also captured. It can be used by the capturing player on the turn after it is captured. Captured and liberated ICs retain all IC damage and are inherited by the new controller.
You cannot place your new units at an IC owned by a friendly power unless its capital is in enemy hands (see liberating a Territory on page 18 ). Even if you liberate a territory with an industrial complex in it, you cannot use the IC; the original controller can use it on his or her turn.
Last edited by Builder_Chris on Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Builder_Chris » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:29 pm

Well, I don’t think that it’s a perfect solution to answering the question of why ICs cant be destroyed but it’s a good start towards more reality, and the explanations may need tweaking but all and all I think it does a fairly good job of making things more detailed and “realistic” and yet still playable for ICs.

For the most part the idea behind IC damage is no different than the way ICs are “damaged” now. The way the rules currently read, when an IC is subjected to rocket strikes and bombing raids, the controller of the IC MUST surrender IPC at the time of the strike. By doing things just a bit differently the controller of the damaged IC still would be subject to the same amount of “damage” in a round as before, the only difference is that now they can choose to repair the damage or not and instead of paying it right when it happens, they wait till the start of their turn. So there are no “new” rules for IC damage, its just got a different way off applying the damage and the minor “extra” rules that sustainable damage add don’t really rewrite the rules, they just expand on them. I don’t see how it could over complicate things.

However, in creating the ideas for sustainable damage, it has raised some similar questions about the current rules for AA guns and with the potential, although slim, for an IC to be “rendered useless” by IC damage, it has brought forth the need for better, more realistic air defense. For instance, something that a friend of mine has asked me for years is how come air craft can’t be scrambled to attack bombing raids, and how come fighters can’t escort bombers on raids? In reality, I know that fighter escorts only worked so far as they had limited range compared to a bomber so they could not go all the way in the game, movement limits naturally answer this question. However in the later years of the war with “long range aircraft”, this became possible, and again the rules already take care of this. And in the game if the fighters left from the “right” location it is physically possible for fighters to escort bombers, but the rules don’t allow for it right now.

So any way, all of the thinking about ICs got me thinking about AA guns and “air defense" and bomber escorts and stuff. So what did I do? You guessed it, I’ve begun thinking about it more and I’m working on some ideas for modifying the rules for AA guns and “Air Defense” but right now it’s just rough thoughts because I think a lot of the “issues” with AA guns, air defense and bomber escorting might be easily answered if units had better description. Because once again, I realize AAR is not that “detailed” of a game but descriptions like “gun batteries that shoot down invading air units” and “small fast aircraft that threaten everything on land or sea” and “mammoth long range aircraft that drop bombs on their targets” just doesn’t say enough. Those descriptions leave TOO much for self interpretation.

Well, enough for now, when I get my thoughts down about AA guns I’ll post them too, till than, please feel free to comment about the IC ideas. I’m really interested to hear if I’ve over complicated things or not. I have not had the opportunity to play test the ideas, so I’m still wondering if it would really work the way I’m envisioning. So let me know what you all think, and I’ll do the same.
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Krieghund
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Post by Krieghund » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:29 pm

Wow, Chris, that's some pretty impressive stuff! I think, just for playability, I'd allow level 2 ICs to produce transports and destroyers as well (as I mentioned earlier). You haven't, by any chance, been keeping up with the news on the new Anniversary game, have you?
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Builder_Chris
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Post by Builder_Chris » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:47 am

The only info I know about the anniversary addition is that it comes out in ....October? and the "stuff" I find about it does not go into much detail so I am basically waiting for it to come out and I'm just going to get it and see what it is all about.

Why do you ask? Am I missing some new information about ICs?
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Post by Krieghund » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:13 am

There's quite a bit of info about it at A&A.org.

The new rules for SBRs use a system of damaging ICs that's very similar to what you've proposed, although it's quite a bit simpler. I was curious as to whether you'd been influenced by them, or had come up with the idea independently. I guess it's true that great minds think alike!
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Post by Builder_Chris » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:59 pm

Sweet…thanks for the info.

I’m really new to all of this “forum” stuff, never saw the point to it, but since I’m not finding many people that enjoy eating, breathing and thinking A&A and WW2 in my local area I’ve been starting to get into these forums…I only knew of this one and Smorey swamp one…so thanks for the heads up to this AA org one…I will digest it now too. Thanks
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