Testing Results: Thread from Carico67

Apparently The Axis & Allies site over at Avalon Hill is going to be phased out soon. A new one will replace it. If you have something over there that you don’t want to be evaporated into thin air then cut and paste it, and bring it over here so that it is not lost forever.
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Testing Results: Thread from Carico67

Post by elbowmaster » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:42 pm

03-07-2004, 10:43 AM #1
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Guys, lets use this thread to compare what we've found in games thus far.

With minor victory both Vecna and I have found Axis to win 4 of 4. Calcutta is VERY difficult to defend, and gives a pretty low % defense against J3/J4/or J5. The answer could be better allied play than we've tried so far (obviously) or moving of Russian troops from Caucacus to Persia R1 or R2. We will be taking that path soon (testing from 2:30-10:30 or so tonight) but any insights or input would be welcomed!

Thanks, C2

[ March 07, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Carico67 ]
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03-08-2004, 12:56 PM #2
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Well, I can't say the weekend was a success, though I do like MANY things about the game.

We played a total of 6 games so far with Minor Victory Conditions and no optionals, and all 6 went to the Axis. In more than 1 game the allies either outplayed or outrolled the Axis yet with no effect on result. Here are the problems summarized:
1) India as a Victory Country. THIS IS THE BIGGEST AND WORST oversight seen so far. In our opinion (Vecna and I) had Australia been chosen instead of India this would be an absolutely INCREDIBLE game. The other thing we said is to make Australia a Victory territory and make the #9 for a nmonor victory condition (leaving both Moscow and Aus as the 9th. India and LEN should be secured easily by round 4, and WEU covered well enough as well to stop any US counters.

2) 10 Victory cities is NOT going to happen in this game... short of some lopsided tech rolls for the axis and against the allies. 8 Stretches the Axis to maintain as is.

The Australia addition would do 1 thing the current settings do not: Force Japans Navy to be active, and perhaps split in its coverage. The navy pretty much ended in India w/2 BB's bombarding every time, and trans sent to block CM takes of Manilla (allies 2 moves away the round India falls as #8 VC) in the games the allies tried to go Pacific in counter.

As it stood this weekend games are over in 4 rounds max, before the allies can stop Japan taking India as the 8. In the best alllied game Russia had sent 4 Inf + 1 Tank + 2 Ftr's, all 3 UK Ftr's, and 2 US Ftr's all resided in India w/a factory and 6 UK Tanks... so 8/-/7/7/AA and WITHOUT teching for HB's (had 6 dice to rol) the Japs stood a 70% take on India J4 after having suffered severe setbacks by both axis powers to that point.

I have some HUGE concerns with the playtest group if they could not see the trouble of India/Australia and what element the game loses by the decision that was made. I would be very curious to any one else's findings (without optionals) because this matter is of major importance regarding future PBEM play.

Thanks, Chris C
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03-08-2004, 07:37 PM #3
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Mike assured us the game had been thoroughly playtested...


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03-08-2004, 10:13 PM #4
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I am quit certain they playtested the game many times the 4 times you have played it. Do not be too quick to judge the balance. I remember when A&AE first came out, some people had trouble winning with Germany and that is pretty funny in hindsight.

You may want to rethink questioning the playtesters after only 4 games.


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03-08-2004, 10:44 PM #5
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Yes, it is early days Sniper.

The thing is 8 VC was always going to be a poor/cheap way to play this game IMHO (even before anyone here played it).

From early reports, it sounds like 9 VC may end up being the PBEM norm.


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03-09-2004, 02:32 AM #6
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My friends and I have talked about the victory points as well.

8 points is tough on the allies. The game has to be played differently, of course. the big problem is holding calcutta.

calcutta needs to be defended by both UK & USSR. UK needs to build fighters for defensive purposes. USSR neesds to pipe down tanks. In this 8 point game perhaps USA should build an IC in asia.

allies will lose leningrad. getting it back or taking western europe doesn't help. allies need to take W.E. and stalingrad or the asia thing could threaten to tak kwangtung. now UK cant do it since it must focus IPCs on india, that leave USSR and USA. USSR should help with india, and that leaves the USA...? We are dealing with a 3 turn game here i think.

Too early to figure out the right strategy, and of course in time we'll all get a better feel for the game mechanics.
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03-09-2004, 03:05 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sniper in the Ruins:
I am quit certain they playtested the game many times the 4 times you have played it. Do not be too quick to judge the balance. I remember when A&AE first came out, some people had trouble winning with Germany and that is pretty funny in hindsight.

You may want to rethink questioning the playtesters after only 4 games.

Sniper, do you have any idea who Carico67 is? Look at his sig and you'll get some idea...

This guy came into the Axis & Allies: Pacific community a few years ago bidding what the AH playtesters told us was 'crazy' VP targets - and was undefeated for quite some time, rising to the top of the rankings. He regularly wins AAP tourneys at GenCon, etc.

If he says something, I'm going to listen.

And I think we all need to keep in mind that balance is very difficult to acheive in a game like this - what is 'balanced' for vetran A&A players might be anything but for newbies - as was seen in Pacific.


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03-09-2004, 02:57 PM #8
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Rich,

Sorry if it offends you when someone disagrees with, or questions, one of the people you look up to. I just find it ludicrous to claim that you
have all the answers after 6 games and to intimate that the playtesters were hacks. I guess C67 has more answers than Larry or Mike.

I guess you did not realize whom you were dealing with since I leave my signature off when I post; but I will include it below for your benefit.

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03-09-2004, 04:05 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sniper:
I guess you did not realize whom you were dealing with since I leave my signature off when I post; but I will include it below for your benefit.

Sniper I.T. Ruins

King of Siam, Vice Admiral of the Baltic, Duke of Earl,Champion of the Basement, Grade School Crossing Guard

First off. LOL! Good one [img]smile.gif[/img]

I guess C67 has more answers than Larry or Mike.
Actually, many game designers are not NECESSARILY great game players. It is conceivable that there are players who know more about how to PLAY the game to win as opposed to how to MAKE a game that is playable.




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03-09-2004, 04:08 PM #10
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Axis can win if you don’t do 2 of 3 things every game. #1 Usa And GB bomb Germany every turn and One of them roll for heavy bombers. #2 UK does not build a factory in India and Kill the JP transport that can strike India. #3 USA does not build up a force to attack into Germany. Landing in Africa and then having a 2-prong attack option into Europe or Southern Europe.

I have played the game many times and if you use the rocket rule as written the axis aka Germany can win with out breaking a sweat. But if you bomb Germany 2 buffs from England and 2 Heavy buffs from USA each turn Germany will not be able to stop USA on turn 4 when they take France and Southern Europe. Also its not very hard for Russia to stop Germany if they use artillery to push Germany back in early Push in turn 1-2 and keeping them 1 space from Moscow is a must. Also having the USA and GB fighters in Moscow to defend is a must too. (The option lend lease rule is nice to even this up a bit too. ) It is also a must that GB Builds a Factory in India to keep Japan from pushing to fast into Russia. If you don’t put pressure on JP you will find Russia getting knocked on both doors very quickly. Also Pulling the GB India fleet back to the Med to kill off Germanys shipping lanes to Africa is not a bad idea too. In the new Game I find it the roll of the Allies to just survive and keep Russia alive long enough to get the Allies into Europe. Also if you put too much of the USA into killing JP you will lose very fast.

Bomb Bomb Bomb. Stack and take. Game over turn 4. Not to say Germany and JP could have lucky rolls and win.

I also have been playing Axis and Allies for many years and have won over 200 games of Axis and Allies online… With out the roll hack. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Post by elbowmaster » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:42 pm

03-09-2004, 06:32 PM #11
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I would have been really suprised if they managed to set the game up to be perfectly even. Maybe there will evolve a 6 bid for Allies in a minor victory game and a 6 bid for Axis in a major victory game. As long as there is a lot of attacking and movement and battles all over the board a balancing bid can be worked out in the PBEM "marketplace." [img]smile.gif[/img]
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03-09-2004, 06:39 PM #12
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Sniper,
I am going to be very tough and blunt to Avalon Hill about a huge error that made with this game. The choice of India over Australia is a hideous mistake. COUPLED with the decision of 8 VP's for the first of 3 victory conditions (and only real aattainable goal for axis without optionals or fortunate 1-way tech rolls). I am gonna be blunt because the major online clubs, where many of the worlds best players are readily available (guys like Butkus, Caesar, Demonbarf, Allied Player, JFink, etc etc), were not involved or contacted about the playtesting process. How do I know; in the governments of AAMC/Spring1942-BOP and have lots of friends in gov at IAAPA and DAAK. Also, on the box it thanks the playtesters used. So I am gonna be blunt with them about OBVIOUS errors... their errors. To me the 8 decision might not be such an error IF AUS had simply been chosen instead of India, but after numerous play tests it obviously was not.

As far as playtesting... I've done it in AAP for AH. We did it again this weekend, with the new game.. read the thread carefully: EVEN WITH POOR MOVES AND ROLLS the axis will win in a 8 VC game w/no options. I've played LOTS of variants (Middle East, World at War, AAE, AAP, and Vecna and I have a 24 page house rule format which is VERY complex as Spruance could tell you (him and his friends play F-to-F with it a lot)). This game isn't very dissimilar from A&A in philosophy, the pieces are pretty much the same, so it doesn't take THAT long for VERY apparent problems IMO.

That said, do I like the game? Yes... there are many things about it that are great, but I'm faced with a dilemna of sorts as is IAAPA and DAAK who are likely also preparing to get DB's and such ready for the PBEM world and the new game. The rules for "the one attainable" VC condition w/out optionals is flawed in equality... that means a few scenarios, and is why I am desperately hoping for feedback from other testers.

Does the PBEM clubs...
---Go to a bidding system?
---Go to the optionals?
---Change India and Australia's roles as a Victory City?
---Go to 9 Victory cities and simply add Australia as the 9th?

The other problem (and many agree including DonRae who appears to have tested it a lot and is a very good player) is that the long game favors the allies heavily on this map. Where does that leave PBEM clubs to "standardize"? I don't know yet, but need to begin to find out desperately soon so we can get on the ball.

Richy, thanks for kind words. Sniper... please don't take offense on strong reaction, I'm not PO'ed at you for what you said by any means, just that I haven't a clue as to what this game holds in store for the PBM world yet, and it's a project I'll be heading at AAMC who has a large # of players waiting patiently for now.. but getting ant-sier by the day to be able to play it competitively in all likelyhood.

Chris C
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03-09-2004, 07:03 PM #13
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Look, Sniper, I realize what playtesting is like, having been involved with some Axis & Allies: Pacific rules changes Rob was considering.

Why were we playtesting rules changes? Because out of the box it was silly-easy for Japan to win. Was it because the playtesters were idiots? Not at all - I have great respect for Rob and Michael Sandy. But sometimes playtesters get into ruts - they see one thing in an interim version, then test the 'fix' to that problem without looking for fresh approaches - sometimes for lack of time.

I have no idea what the playtesting was like for this game, maybe those things I described happened this time, maybe not.


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03-09-2004, 07:55 PM #14
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To Carico67 or Rich. Both your comment have sparked my interest. I'm a retired Military DAV, that has played tons of games of A&A with fellow soldiers. Now I'm faced with no gamers in my area that I know of. This PBM for A&A intrigues me. Can you point me in the right direction? I've never play any game except face to face.

Sincerly.

Sean MacDaniel Swart(4th Inf Div.) UsArmy retired.


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03-09-2004, 07:56 PM #15
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Quote:
Actually, many game designers are not NECESSARILY great game players. It is conceivable that there are players who know more about how to PLAY the game to win as opposed to how to MAKE a game that is playable.

It's not only conceivable, it's a certainty. Two different skill sets.

That said, I think I'm pretty good, but I'm certain I'd get crushed by some of the people on this board.

Mike


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03-09-2004, 08:08 PM #16
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Playtesters or even playtesting is no cure all. Sometimes things are overlooked. Sometimes important feedback gets lost in translation or simply ignored for one reason or another. Often playtesters and playtester-groups discover aspects that when implemented improve the game. They can be very effective. I owe a lot to the people listed on the credits of this game and the ones that preceded it. Playtesting, like everything, has its good points and yes, its limitations.

No organized playtesting efforts could possibly equal what one month of games played by thousands of people could uncover or discover. I'm talking about this new thing called the web. This is of course especially true when so many of these thousands of people all report back to a couple of web sites. Clear pictures start to emerge. Problems are discovered - It is how this information is handled is what’s important.

I have more respect for web feedback than I have for developmental playtesting. It’s all about the numbers!

Ultimately I want to discover how the game can be improved. I don’t want to defend broken systems or deny that certain aspects can’t be improved on. At some point I hope to organize a site that not only listens but encourages people to find things wrong with the game. Only in this way can the game grow and improve.

As the creator and designer of this and all the other Axis & Allies games, I have high hopes of pleasing the core audience. At the same time mistakes are made in the rule book. Why does a British fighter cost 12 and everyone else pays only 10 IPC's for theirs – I think we know why.

I’d like to, along with Avalon Hill, form an official web site that deals not only with FAQ’s but also official changes to the game's rules. This site would need some authority and not make changes lightly. I’m just typing away here… but if you have any thoughts along this line please let me know.

I have come to greatly respect the people and comments made on these boards. I am often just blown away with the intelligence and depth of so many of you. Your insights and knowledge of Axis & Allies amazes and humbles me. I'm smart enough to know a good thing when I see it and my friends you are collectively a "Good thing".

Regards

Larry Harris
Creator Axis & Allies

[ March 09, 2004, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Larry Harris ]


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03-09-2004, 08:15 PM #17
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[ March 09, 2004, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Larry Harris ]


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03-09-2004, 08:23 PM #18
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That (Larry's post) brings a question to mind - why aren't the 'greater numbers' used to start with - I mean why not use PbeM for the playtesting process - something like MOT's mapviewer/ Der Panzinator's stuff would be ideal, and also keep an excellent reviewable set of records.
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03-09-2004, 08:24 PM #19
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Actually there is a very easy way to even out the sides using the British Colonial Garrison optional rule. If britain builds a factory in India they give Japan a much harder time taking India
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03-09-2004, 08:27 PM #20
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one word:

Logistics

-OR-

keeping track... perhaps spilling the rules to all the people. Game may never go into production if it's given to the wrong people (of course contracts might enforce confidentiality)

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Post by elbowmaster » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:43 pm

03-09-2004, 08:29 PM #21
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I would still love to have you on my team, Mike!


-Nick- [img]smile.gif[/img]
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03-09-2004, 08:33 PM #22
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Well, logistics would be made easier using software actually; keeping track - other software - there are plenty of apps that could help with that; rule leakage - well, more of a risk due to bigger numbers, but 1) all content gets leaked eventually anyway these days, and 2) I think it could be kept under wraps at least nearly as well as what did they say a hundred playtest groups?
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03-09-2004, 08:35 PM #23
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Rich and C67,

Thanks for taking my post the right way. I was just trying to point out that opitmal play can take months to discover. It may very well be that the Axis has a distinct advantage in the 8VP game, if that is the case it would be a good introductory game for someone new to A&A.

I think the desingers new how hard it was going to be to make a balanced game and the optional rules will help to balance it once optimal play is discovered.

C67 - I have been playing A&A since 1984 but I am sure I am not even close to being in your league.

Rich- I heard from a gaming buddy that you have done a lot of volunteer work on dicey for the A&A games. I play a lot of A&A style games PBEM ,thank you for your efforts.

I embelished my signature on the previous post and I apologize, I am not really a Grade School Crossing Guard. Game On!

By the way so far I love the Revised A&A and have a PBEM game going as we speak.


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03-09-2004, 08:37 PM #24
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WOW!- Larry, thanks for the insights!!! Like many people here, my (twin) brother and I have been playing A&A (and all other GameMaster series) since thier early release. As you may know, A&A became very popular in many "war-gamer's" collection.
I truly hope this next spin of A&A and even furture variants will be tremendously popular and very successful at that.
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03-09-2004, 08:43 PM #25
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.....I would love to see a forum where we (as gamers) can make a difference especially in a game where you have "dreamed" up and crafted so nicely. I look forward to enjoy the games for now and look in the future of how we can always improve on gameplay/ rules issues /etc.

Thanks again for listening to us, and always a pleasure playing your games!

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03-09-2004, 08:47 PM #26
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Impressive. A lot of corporate people don't get the web yet - they think they have to control ideas to be useful. Glad to hear you get it! You'll be a far better designer/thinker/knowledge-worker for it.

While I'm at it - thank-you for giving us a fresh take on A&A w/ your team. I just finished my third game with friends and we had a freaking mental time...Germany held off in Moscow and a US fleet-from-hell taking Kwangtung in turn 3. Crazy stuff.

Thanks for the gift of this game.


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03-10-2004, 02:21 AM #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean MacDaniel Swart:
To Carico67 or Rich. Both your comment have sparked my interest. I'm a retired Military DAV, that has played tons of games of A&A with fellow soldiers. Now I'm faced with no gamers in my area that I know of. This PBM for A&A intrigues me. Can you point me in the right direction? I've never play any game except face to face.

Sincerly.

Sean MacDaniel Swart(4th Inf Div.) UsArmy retired.

Hi Sean,

the 3 major pbem clubs in the world ("classic" A&A):

AAMC
http://www.aamc.net/axisandallies.shtml
http://pub1.ezboard.com/btheofficersclub

IAAPA
http://www.axisandallies.net/index.html
http://pub120.ezboard.com/biaapaopenforumbbs

DAAK
http://www.daak.de/
http://www.daak.de/forum/

Have Fun!

[ March 10, 2004, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: OpTorch ]


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03-10-2004, 02:59 AM #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry Harris:
I’d like to, along with Avalon Hill, form an official web site that deals not only with FAQ’s but also official changes to the game's rules. This site would need some authority and not make changes lightly. I’m just typing away here… but if you have any thoughts along this line please let me know.

Hi Larry,

I think this is a great idea. The major online clubs all use their own interpretations on the rules. Sometimes these interpretations will lead to the same rules, sometimes they wont.

There are some ideas to form a committee to work on these rule differences between these clubs. So far this has only been done incidentaly.

If Avalon Hill would step into such an initiative (or the other way around of course [img]smile.gif[/img] ) good things can come from this, for both the online as the offline A&A players.

Regards,
Alexander

AAMC JSC & DAAK Minister


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03-10-2004, 04:00 AM #29
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[ March 10, 2004, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: OpTorch ]


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03-10-2004, 05:55 AM #30
PaschatKing
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Quote:
I’d like to, along with Avalon Hill, form an official web site that deals not only with FAQ’s but also official changes to the game's rules. This site would need some authority and not make changes lightly. I’m just typing away here… but if you have any thoughts along this line please let me know.

Nice idea. Perhaps you can also provide a link betwen the official rule changes and various players' set up and game variants.

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03-10-2004, 07:28 AM #31
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I'd be happy to provide whatever hosting services are required for this if it's going to be a community thing... I did something very similar for Axis & Allies: Pacific (see my Annotated Manual )


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03-10-2004, 10:30 AM #32
baron
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I don't claim to have it all figured out by any means, I've only played 4.5 games. And I'm not going to dispute that the axis have an advantage in the minor victory game. I haven't actually played a minor victory game, but I identified long ago how close the axis were, so I'm not surprised.

What disturbes me greatly is the number of posts that say it's impossible to win a major (or presumably total) victory game as the axis. There are two things. One, I find it hard to believe that the playtesters (As maligned as they've been) have inequity as big as this implies, that we've been able to find in only four or five days of playing.

Two, I don't believe it. Since we've "established" that it's too easy for the axis to take two victory cities, we're saying either that it's impossible to take and hold Russia, or that having taken Russia, it's impossible to invade the UK, and eventually the US. The second seems more ludicrous to me, so I'll tackle it first. There are 166 IPCs produced on the board every turn. The actual number produced will be slightly higher, as captured territories get counted twice. If germany has captured russia, then it's only one turn (possibly) two before germany and japan have captured all of the USSR territories. At this point, Japan has also usually taken the majority of south and southeast asia, meaning the axis are in near total control of a connected landmass totalling 91 IPCs Now, assuming that the americans have taken either africa or the majority of the japanese islands, the axis are sitting at around 100 IPCs, or 3/5ths of the world production. With that advantage in production, and not needing transports to get there, they should in short order have total control of the eruope-asia-africa landmass, and it should be virtually unassailable. I'm not saying the allies can't win from there, but with that kind of IPC advantage, the axis ought to have a good shot at industrial bombing england into submission and then invading. As for the first possibility, I don't buy it because I've done it against players of my skill level. Now, maybe there's an optimal strategy that we haven't yet discovered, but I don't think it will be that one-sided.

Scott

[ March 10, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: baron ]


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03-10-2004, 10:48 AM #33
Drax Kramer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry Harris:

I’d like to, along with Avalon Hill, form an official web site that deals not only with FAQ’s but also official changes to the game's rules. This site would need some authority and not make changes lightly. I’m just typing away here… but if you have any thoughts along this line please let me know.

Once upon a time (just after the release of A&A CD) there was a site dedicated to A&A: axisandallies.com

Alas, it went down when Hasbro Interactive was sold. Let's hope we'll have more luck this time.

Drax


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03-10-2004, 10:59 AM #34
Drax Kramer
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Quote:
Originally posted by baron:

What disturbes me greatly is the number of posts that say it's impossible to win a major (or presumably total) victory game as the axis.

An important thing to notice is that these two types of victory (minor vs major) requieres different styles of play on behalf of Allies, especially Soviets.

In minor game, the posession of Kareliamatters a lot. This territory is equidistant from Germany and Russia which makes Soviet job more difficult.

In major game, control of Russia is the only thing that matters. Soviets do not need to expose themselves so far away from Russia.


Quote:
There are two things. One, I find it hard to believe that the playtesters (As maligned as they've been) have inequity as big as this implies, that we've been able to find in only four or five days of playing.

Someone playtested MB game as well. Yet, it was broken if played out of the box.


Quote:
Two, I don't believe it. Since we've "established" that it's too easy for the axis to take two victory cities, we're saying either that it's impossible to take and hold Russia, or that having taken Russia, it's impossible to invade the UK, and eventually the US.

The big question is what can Allies do while Germans are after Russia? The following question is when does Germany conquer Russia? If it captures it before turn 5 it means that Germany used only initial infantry and artillery in this attack which means that the fate of Moscow hinges on the initial setup.

If Russia falls on G5, it means that after G1 all German infantry&artillery purchases have no effect on this battle.

So, we should go back and ask what can Allies do in the four turns before German turn one purchases reach Moscow?


Quote:
As for the first possibility, I don't buy it because I've done it against players of my skill level.

My question to you is, when did you last time capture UK or US against the competant opposition playing without bids or house rules?

Drax


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03-10-2004, 11:59 AM #35
smo63
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Carico67,

Nice to see you are stirring up the hornet’s nest. We have all been down this road before and it will be very interesting to see how things pan out in the next 5 month leading up to GEN CON!

Unfortunately, I have not played just yet but I could not resist chiming in. Now that the new is out, there will be so many opinions of what is best for the game, we will just have to wait until tournament play to see who really knows what they are talking about. And that is where you have definitely proven yourself over the last two years.

I also, think that Larry's comments are very insightful regarding game play and testing. I believe the real challenge again, comes in tournament play, when the players that don't make mistakes, don't rely on the dice and you have the best minds in the game going at it head to head is when the true spirit of the game comes out. Sitting down with Larry and others over the years playing, watching and judging games has been a source of great reward for me and I really look forward to tackling the same with third edition...until next time.

Peace,
Greg Smorey
Axis & Allies Tournaments GEN CON Indy


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03-10-2004, 01:20 PM #36
UsmcIceman
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If they don’t come out and say that the rules are wrong for Rockets Germany can roll for Rockets on turn 1 buy 1 AA gun and fire 3 rockets at GB turn 1 turn 2 fire 2 Rockets at GB and 2 At Russia and then if you want 4 per turn at GB or Russia. GB being the Easy target due to the Range. Only a good USA play can save them and Germany will have no Problem whittling down the Russians Until Jp can help in a joint strike into Moscow.

Now they did this so the axis have a Chance to win Or they didn’t see the power of 4 rockets a turn fired into one factory. 4 d 6 = 14 IPC per turn. Max of 24 not counting any Bombers you might use. Or that you might Get Heavy bombers too.

A nuke dropped in ww2 didn’t kill many troops. But it did kill the Money/work force.

[ March 10, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: David Coley ]
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03-10-2004, 02:45 PM #37
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AWESOME posts... man I go to work and come back to find some REALLY deep discussions! Just made my day!

First off, Larry, I love your post and your continued willingness to always take measures to try to make the game better! The idea is brilliant, and as you know, I'll assist (and could get lots of willing helpers) any way you need! Carico67@hotmail.com

Greg, thanks for support as always! You as well know, if you need any assistance I'll be in Indy to help, but could never get the wife to allow me Origins and GenCon or I'd do both in a heartbeat. Same deal as with Larry, just let me know when you need a workforce (the guys at AAMC are fanatical about the game, as well as BOP/Spring1942 CDers). I can you get you bodies, competent asst's to judge, etc, if Mark B couldn't be there or some such scenario for example.

Sniper, I have the feeling you'd give anyone a good game. My post was very forthright, and was intended to b so in hopes this thread would pull some of the things it has from the posts that have followed (Larry's and Mike's posts I found brilliant). I would normally not publicly 'tirade' like that as it could be seen as very inconsiderate and rude but felt that with a time bomb ticking (the PBEM worlds gonna get impatient... they're itching to get to playing with some agreed upon 'standardized ruleset'), I simply felt it was time to get somewhat obnoxious to try to get feedback ASAP. As I posted last time, no ill will meant towards you, i expected someone to lam-baist me, and to do so justifiably.

Alex (AKA: OPTorch), as always you're the man! Thanks for beating me to the punch. Anyone interested in PBEM please check those sights (The top one is pretty cool )

To all others.. keep the ideas coming! I am desperately hoping to have some ideas in mind to touch base with both DAAK and IAAPA representatives with, so we can be somewhat along the same lines of sight in ruleset standards of the new game, and create a possible scenario for the interclub rivalries that make for many great events in the 2nd edition PBEM world up to now.

Thanks for reading,
Chris C
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03-10-2004, 04:07 PM #38
cpt john
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Well, me and one other guy are into our first game and it's been exciting. I am really happy with the lack of automatic moves. Everything seems to have a consequence.

Germany heading down to lock in winning Africa let the Russians (with some luck) beat back the German front.

Britain being bold (and unlucky) with their bomber and 2 fighters let Germany walk into Britain - well, that was just a silly mistake by my opponent whose not on a level with many of you (nor am I of course).

I even took a mildly defensive stance in the Pacific as japan and still solidly hit the US fleet that's still recovering. I did manage to make it through the first round of combat when he went after the sub, so I submerged it to fight again off Hawaii - that was a helpful bit of luck.

Anyway, I have no experience with these tournaments, but it seems to me it would be best to just play to a certain number of rounds and see how many VCs you got. Reverse sides and see what the other guy gets. Oh well, I'm probably just proving I know nothing about touneys.

I do have a quick rules question for you experts. Are game has Lend Lease - which says the units convert on the purchase units phase. Does this mean the US can fly in a fighter - the Russians convert it and use it immediately for an attack? Or is the unit picked off the board and levied later with the purchased units at the end of the turn. I mostly ask cause it's about to let him hit me with a bunch of fighters!!! I'm sure it is the first option, but that's kinda spanky too (as many are saying about other techs and stuff).

Thanks.


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03-11-2004, 06:50 AM #39
cpt john
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A lot of people are saying how the higher number of provinces on the Eastern Front will stop stacking. As I said in the last post I'm just on game 1 with a guy who made a lot of early mistakes with Britain, so I'm not seeing yet what will happen most of the time. So, here's my question that I would love to here what you experts like C67 think.

AAE had even more provinces and more stacking. The designers did a good job of spreading out Russia in the the new AA with IC in Caucuses and VC in Karelia, but I see stacking coming to light in East Russia or (surprisingly) Belorus. How do the Germans counter. Well, I think that's easy - a stack aimed at Caucuses with maybe a helpful linkup with Japan or Africa forces. Of course, in a 8 VC game the stack would go the Karelia instead, I'm not an idiot.

I played just one game of AAE and realized Russia had to stack on Belorus. I didn't get any further in analyzing Germany because by game 2 we just made a rule limiting each province to 15 dudes (you could have more, but only the 15 of your choice could fight - the excess were surrounded and killed if you lost the battle). So, I hate stacking cause it's just so unrealistic. I've also thought of making you trace a supply line and basing the maximum # of pieces to the maximum value province you can trace a supply line too - but that's too complicated for most. Although the idea that Midway could hold 8 Corps of infantry and tanks is also patently absurd.

So, what do you experts think. Is stacking really gone? Even partially gone?


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03-11-2004, 07:30 AM #40
Attila
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Hiho,

> the 3 major pbem clubs in the world ("classic"
> A&A):

Four:

http://www.flames-of-europe.de

Including the most advanced and most complete dice server in the world (for all A&A "clones")!

Atti

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03-11-2004, 09:01 AM #41
Talonz
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Quote:
Originally posted by cpt john:

So, what do you experts think. Is stacking really gone? Even partially gone?

It will never be gone. Concentration of strength is a primary doctrine of military operations.

However, having a game win hinge on victory cities rather than 1 capital (as it was in A&AE) will encourage short term stacking for several specefic goals rather than 1 long term stack for 1 target and the gamewin.

Which is a definite improvement imo.


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03-11-2004, 10:21 AM #42
baron
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Quote:
Originally posted by Drazen Kramaric:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by baron:

What disturbes me greatly is the number of posts that say it's impossible to win a major (or presumably total) victory game as the axis.

An important thing to notice is that these two types of victory (minor vs major) requieres different styles of play on behalf of Allies, especially Soviets.

In minor game, the posession of Kareliamatters a lot. This territory is equidistant from Germany and Russia which makes Soviet job more difficult.

In major game, control of Russia is the only thing that matters. Soviets do not need to expose themselves so far away from Russia.
</font>[/quote]Absolutely, I don't dispute this at all. In fact, it's one of the things I really like about the minor victory (though I haven't played it yet).

Quote:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr>There are two things. One, I find it hard to believe that the playtesters (As maligned as they've been) have inequity as big as this implies, that we've been able to find in only four or five days of playing.

Someone playtested MB game as well. Yet, it was broken if played out of the box.
</font>[/quote]Now, the game is broken out of the box. Twenty years ago, it was just fine. You can't blame the playtesters for missing flaws that took the player community years to discover. What I am saying is that is the height of arrogance to be making claims about this game less than a week out.

Quote:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Two, I don't believe it. Since we've "established" that it's too easy for the axis to take two victory cities, we're saying either that it's impossible to take and hold Russia, or that having taken Russia, it's impossible to invade the UK, and eventually the US.

The big question is what can Allies do while Germans are after Russia? The following question is when does Germany conquer Russia? If it captures it before turn 5 it means that Germany used only initial infantry and artillery in this attack which means that the fate of Moscow hinges on the initial setup.

If Russia falls on G5, it means that after G1 all German infantry&artillery purchases have no effect on this battle.

So, we should go back and ask what can Allies do in the four turns before German turn one purchases reach Moscow?
</font>[/quote]If Russia is falling on G5 or before, then either you need a better player playing russia, or germany is attacking with such single minded devotion that it is ignoring all other fronts, and it's no surprise that the other allies are a problem.

Quote:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr>As for the first possibility, I don't buy it because I've done it against players of my skill level.

My question to you is, when did you last time capture UK or US against the competant opposition playing without bids or house rules?

Drax</font>[/quote]I'll be honest, my opponents usually surrender before that point because continuation is futile. It can be very difficult, and take a long time to capture either UK or US. The point is, once the axis have solidified control of Eurasia and africa, the US and UK can kick and scream all they want, but defeat is almost inevitable. Once the axis have a production advantage over the allies, and the allies have been knocked back on their heels needing to defend their capitals, the axis can start an industrial bombing campaign and keep them locked down for good, then invade at their leisure. The only time it's an issue is when the allies have amassed a large counter-attacking force, and can attack (usually Germany) before the axis can consolidate.


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03-12-2004, 06:43 AM #43
Drax Kramer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Talonz:

Concentration of strength is a primary doctrine of military operations.

Yes, limited by logistical considerations. In a computer game you could have machine doing the bean counting and making total concentration of everything in one space a bad thing. Why? Because there is only so much supplies that can travel through any particular road net supplying the troops deployed there.

In A&A we do not need any complicated mechanisms. We can simply say, no more than X units can stack in any territory at the end of any phase. Or we can include IPC value of the territory and link it in some way with the stack limit. Both are easy to implement.


Quote:
However, having a game win hinge on victory cities rather than 1 capital (as it was in A&AE) will encourage short term stacking for several specefic goals rather than 1 long term stack for 1 target and the gamewin.

If I take your capital, I'll take your remaining victory city and complex as well. Except for Minor victory, you have to take a capital to win, therefore capitals are the obvious targets.

Drax

Which is a definite improvement imo.[/QB][/quote]


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03-12-2004, 08:51 AM #44
Panther
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Quote:

To all others.. keep the ideas coming! I am desperately hoping to have some ideas in mind to touch base with both DAAK and IAAPA representatives with, so we can be somewhat along the same lines of sight in ruleset standards of the new game, and create a possible scenario for the interclub rivalries that make for many great events in the 2nd edition PBEM world up to now.


Chris, I agree totally with you that we all should create a rule set standard this time as we have the perfect chance to.
To all:
Im responsible for rules interpretations at DAAK, and so I had a very intense look on the new rules. There are a lot of things that need clarification, and I really hope that the oficial clarifications will be out soon. (If you want to get an impression what clarifications could look like take a look on the one we worked out at DAAK: http://daak.de/regeln/eng/DAAKClari_Eng.pdf )

As for the victory point problem I tend to go to an requirement of 9 to win but leave the one in India . But I have to get more experience before I really make my mind up.
Moreover we are working and the translation of the rules into German and the adaption of the LowLuck rules to the new A&A.
For the latter we also would like to work together with all who are intersted in.

Alex
Vice president DAAK
www.daak.de
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