Sub's, Transports and Amphibious assaults

Marking the 50th anniversary of Avalon Hill, Wizards of the Coast published this very special version of A&A. I hope you enjoy it.
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Pounce
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Sub's, Transports and Amphibious assaults

Post by Pounce » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:50 am

The last few times I've been playing AA50 with a couple of friends we've had some disagreements concerning the Sub- , Transport- and Amphibious assault rules. Could someone please help me / us out with the following issues ?

1st one is an issue with Sub's / TRN's "defending" coastal waters during an Amphibious assault:
In case of an Amphibious assault accompanied by let's say 2 BB's and 2 CR's with only Subs "defending" the coastal waters, I can ignore these Subs and continue with the landing and have the BB's and CR's pummel the shores with their bombardment. But what if I decide to clear the waters of those pesky subs first and the subs in reaction decide to live and fight another day and dive!-dive-!dive!. Although no dice are rolled it still does count as combat , right ? So my BB's and CR's will NOT have the option of shore bombardment. Correct ?

2nd one is an issue with a move we've nicknamed a "double-dip".
In this case you split up a naval fleet in parts to sink groups of (or single) Sub's/TRN's in adjacent consecutive seazones.
For instance: Let's say I've got a fleet of 4 DD's, 4 BB's and 4 Sub's in SZ46. In SZ53 and SZ56 there are (combined ) groups of enemy Sub's/TRN's with no other surface warships I then proceed to move the fleet to SZ56 to attack the Sub's/TRN's there (as they can choose to ignore the group of Sub's/TRN's in SZ 53) and splitting of half the fleet to stay behind in SZ53 and attack the group there.
Is this allowed or not ? I say "Yes" although others argue that the entire fleet has to halt in SZ53 and participate in the battle.
In my opinion this would only be the case if there's an Amphibious assault planned from that same SZ as well (in this case an assault on Hawaï) and the attacker decides not to ignore the Sub's/TRN's but to eradicate them, prior to the assault. Then and only then would the entire fleet need to participate in the naval battle. Am I correct or do I owe a few friends some apologies ?

3rd one is a combination of both prior issues:
Starting from one SZ, is it allowed to make a double-Amphibious assault from adjacent consecutive seazones with each SZ having it's "own" assault and where the contested SZ's both have only Sub's/TRN's for defense.
Example: Starting in SZ6 with a fleet of 2BB's, 2 CR's, 2 DD's and 4 TRN's (fully loaded) and SZ7 & SZ12 both only having enemy Sub's/TRN's. Can you divide the starting fleet in 2 separate parties (each consisting of a BB, CR, DD and 2 TRN's) with one party stopping in SZ7 and making an Amphibious assault on France (ignoring the Sub's/TRN's) and the other continuing on to SZ12 and initiate a 2nd Amphibious assault on Morocco Algeria. (as they also choose to ignore the Sub's/TRN's in SZ7) ?
If "Yes", then this double-assault can only take place provided that the Sub's/TRN's in SZ7 are ignored. As soon as the attacker decides to take out the defenders fleet as well, than the entire fleet (from SZ6) must halt and participate in the battle. Right ?

4th and final one ;-) : I've read the rule book over and over and checked all FAQ's for AA50 and even looked up the AA1942 rules, but I can't find any rule telling/ stating when submerged sub's actually resurface again. Are they considered resurfaced again as soon as they are placed back on the map (similar to the upright placement of a damaged BB) or at the end of the Non-combat movement ?

Thank you very much for working your way through this epistle !

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Re: Sub's, Transports and Amphibious assaults

Post by Krieghund » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:45 pm

Welcome, Pounce!
Pounce wrote:1st one is an issue with Sub's / TRN's "defending" coastal waters during an Amphibious assault:
In case of an Amphibious assault accompanied by let's say 2 BB's and 2 CR's with only Subs "defending" the coastal waters, I can ignore these Subs and continue with the landing and have the BB's and CR's pummel the shores with their bombardment.
Yes.
Pounce wrote:But what if I decide to clear the waters of those pesky subs first and the subs in reaction decide to live and fight another day and dive!-dive-!dive!. Although no dice are rolled it still does count as combat , right ? So my BB's and CR's will NOT have the option of shore bombardment. Correct ?
Correct.
Pounce wrote:2nd one is an issue with a move we've nicknamed a "double-dip".
In this case you split up a naval fleet in parts to sink groups of (or single) Sub's/TRN's in adjacent consecutive seazones.
For instance: Let's say I've got a fleet of 4 DD's, 4 BB's and 4 Sub's in SZ46. In SZ53 and SZ56 there are (combined ) groups of enemy Sub's/TRN's with no other surface warships I then proceed to move the fleet to SZ56 to attack the Sub's/TRN's there (as they can choose to ignore the group of Sub's/TRN's in SZ 53) and splitting of half the fleet to stay behind in SZ53 and attack the group there.
Is this allowed or not ? I say "Yes" although others argue that the entire fleet has to halt in SZ53 and participate in the battle.
Yes, it's allowed. Subs and transports never block movement.
Pounce wrote:In my opinion this would only be the case if there's an Amphibious assault planned from that same SZ as well (in this case an assault on Hawaï) and the attacker decides not to ignore the Sub's/TRN's but to eradicate them, prior to the assault. Then and only then would the entire fleet need to participate in the naval battle. Am I correct or do I owe a few friends some apologies ?
This would make no difference. Part of the fleet could still move through into the next sea zone. Unless you mean that the entire fleet must attack the subs and transports, as opposed to some attacking them and some bombarding, in which case you're right.
Pounce wrote:3rd one is a combination of both prior issues:
Starting from one SZ, is it allowed to make a double-Amphibious assault from adjacent consecutive seazones with each SZ having it's "own" assault and where the contested SZ's both have only Sub's/TRN's for defense.
Example: Starting in SZ6 with a fleet of 2BB's, 2 CR's, 2 DD's and 4 TRN's (fully loaded) and SZ7 & SZ12 both only having enemy Sub's/TRN's. Can you divide the starting fleet in 2 separate parties (each consisting of a BB, CR, DD and 2 TRN's) with one party stopping in SZ7 and making an Amphibious assault on France (ignoring the Sub's/TRN's) and the other continuing on to SZ12 and initiate a 2nd Amphibious assault on Morocco Algeria. (as they also choose to ignore the Sub's/TRN's in SZ7) ?
Yes.
Pounce wrote:If "Yes", then this double-assault can only take place provided that the Sub's/TRN's in SZ7 are ignored. As soon as the attacker decides to take out the defenders fleet as well, than the entire fleet (from SZ6) must halt and participate in the battle. Right ?
No. Each sea zone's occupants can be attacked or ignored independently.
Pounce wrote:4th and final one ;-) : I've read the rule book over and over and checked all FAQ's for AA50 and even looked up the AA1942 rules, but I can't find any rule telling/ stating when submerged sub's actually resurface again. Are they considered resurfaced again as soon as they are placed back on the map (similar to the upright placement of a damaged BB) or at the end of the Non-combat movement ?
They resurface as soon as they are placed back on the map.
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Re: Sub's, Transports and Amphibious assaults

Post by Pounce » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:33 am

Hi Krieghund,

thanks for the quick reply and answers. Will help a lot when we play next time.
Krieghund wrote:
Pounce wrote:In my opinion this would only be the case if there's an Amphibious assault planned from that same SZ as well (in this case an assault on Hawaï) and the attacker decides not to ignore the Sub's/TRN's but to eradicate them, prior to the assault. Then and only then would the entire fleet need to participate in the naval battle. Am I correct or do I owe a few friends some apologies ?
This would make no difference. Part of the fleet could still move through into the next sea zone. Unless you mean that the entire fleet must attack the subs and transports, as opposed to some attacking them and some bombarding, in which case you're right.
I see now that we misinterpret the rule in Step 1 of the Amphibious assault in the Rulebook. The part stating "all attacking sea units" only applies to the units assigned to that specific Amphibious Assualt and NOT every unit entering that SZ.

Just curious now: Suppose I enter a SZ containing only 3 enemy Subs. I enter it with a BB, a TRN and 2 Subs. Could I decide for the BB and TRN to ignore the enemy subs and stay in that SZ and only attack them with my 2 subs ?
! Vae Victus !

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Re: Sub's, Transports and Amphibious assaults

Post by Krieghund » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:55 pm

No. Everything in the sea zone will participate in the battle if there is one.
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