I did not allow Germany to DOW UK or France on turn 1 because at the time of the attack on Poland, Germany still was avoiding war with UK and France. Uk could declare war on Germany UK1 and France can declare war on F1 collect income phase, since they were very tentative in real life. The US and Russia can not DOW until turn 5. No DOW may happen concerning Italy until I2.
On turn 1 Germany has to take Poland and Norway before these areas become controlled by allied powers. It is also advisable to take out Belgium/Holland.
UK is able to consolidate their fleet and try to activate Greece and/or Yugoslavia, or if Germany misses them on turn 1, Belgium/Holland and/or Norway.
France sucks just like in real life.
Russia must activate Baltic States, East Poland, and Bessarabia.
USA starts out at this time with negative 70 ipc's in the bank. Partly because there are hardly any U.S. units to remove for the setup and partly for lend lease to France and Britain.
Anyway the first attempt is done. If anyone is interested in trying it out let me know and I will post the setup and political rules here. Thanks.
Eagle wrote:What is the point of starting in 1939 if the players are not free to do what they want ?
Fair enough question. What was the point of starting in 1940 if the players are not free to do what they want? People have wanted different scenarios 1939, 1941, 1942 for this game, I just worked backwards from 1940. Judging from your past posts you would like a free for all game starting in 1940, I understand that. Others would like something quite historical and would like this kind of game. I would enjoy either. This post was about a scenario where things start out as historically as possible and is modeled after the Europe 1940 game only starting in 1939. Since, Larry chose to balance the game by restricting DOW's by the U.S. and U.S.S.R. I chose to do the same.
I enjoy your opinions Eagle and share some of them. I don't like the restrictions on DOW that much either but they do help to balance the game and try to keep them historical. I don't see in a historical game how the U.S. can be at war in 1939. However, with you opinion in mind I could concieve of a starting point in 1939 which does not restrict such things as DOW's. I like things to start out historically though so what do you do with a peace minded, isolationist U.S.? What do you do about the German-Russian treaty or the Japanese-Russian treaty or the French-British-Polish treaty? You could have a free for all game (everyone for themselves) or you could have three groups: Russia, Germany, France UK USA.
Not allowed to attack anyone until turn 5, what is the point ? With that kind of rules, I guarantee you that this game will play out just like it did historically. Germany must attack Poland in turn 1, because the rules say so etc etc
Actually, as Germany you are free to not attack Poland, they will probably be activated by the U.S.S.R. though. You are also free to roll through Poland and head straight into the U.S.S.R. but then you have France and U.K. to worry about.
You could ignore everyone and head south into Africa or you could follow a historical path. I am not scripting anything. I am simply starting the countries with their historical attitudes. U.K. pushed to the brink of war, one more mis-step by Germany and they go too far.
I would not be averse to ahistorical possibilities, in fact I love those possibilities.
1. Germany and Russia keep their treaty.
2. Germany makes peace with the U.K. and France and attacks the Russians.
3. The U.S.A. remains out of the war.
4. U.K. and France give more warnings before declaring war. (Oops Poland is gone now whatever you do don't attack Yugoslavia or we'll go to war. No really we mean it this time.)
These are all great possibilities but how do you allow for all of them and keep the game balanced? That is the big question. I enjoy randomness and don't mind using charts for events like these. For example after each German aggression roll on the U.K. chart to see if they go to war. Things like that allow for differences from game to game.
Anyway those are a few of my thoughts and I appreciate yours even though they seemed kind of harsh and critical. Any constructive ideas would be welcomed, but I think it kind of unfair for you to judge my first attempt at this without even seeing the details or trying the scenario out for yourself.
France did not "suck". They had a really large stanidng army, and great fixed defences. it was just their tech and tactics that was outdated. And they fell into a clever trap.turner wrote: France sucks just like in real life.
In honor of Eagle, there are no political rules. You do not have to wait to DOW any other nation. There are some historical rules though. This is a three player game. Germany & Italy, USA & UK & France, Russia. Russia may attack Western Allied Units if they like, but not in original Western Allied territories.
Starting Income Levels: Germany - 19, Italy - 10, France - 17, USSR - 26,
USA - 35, UK - 29
Germany is the aggressor obviously. They start poised to attack in the East. They are taking the gamble that the West will not go to war. They are wrong.
Italy is Germany's minor ally. They are not as prepared for war as Germany but they are more prepared than Russia or the Western Allies.
USSR is looking to get more territory in Eastern Europe and perhaps the Balkans or Middle East. They never liberate a territory. If for instance Russia were to take over Egypt from Italy it would become a Russian Territory not revert back to Britain.
Western Allies liberate each others territories.
Units from the Western Allies may share the same territory. Units from Germany and Italy may share the same territory. Russian units may not share territories with any power.
Historically the Allies were not prepared for Wartime production. To simulate this all Allies including Russia start with 0 ipc on hand. At the end of their Round 1 turns all Allies collect 0 ipc's. At the end of round 2 turns Russia and USA collect 0 ipc's but France and UK collect as normal. At the end of Round 3 all countries collect as normal. Italy and Germany start with 10 and 19 ipc's respectively and collect as normal. Don't worry this is compensated by the size of the Allied starting forces. But remember as the Allies you have to be a little cautious to start with your military resources. (This was easier and more historical than forcing the Allies to start with no IC's or bases.)
The Axis (Germans and Italians) win if they control 8 of 10 victory cities.
The Allies win if they control Rome and Berlin. The Western Allies win if at the time of an Allied victory they control more victory cities than USSR, otherwise USSR wins.
All of the original National Objectives are included in the game. There are two added to deal with the German-Russian treaty.
1. If Russia attacks Germany first, Germany gets 10 IPC bonus.
2. If Germany attacks Russia first, Russia gets 5 IPC bonus.
Blockhouse: A blockhouse represents fixed border defenses, whether coastal (Atlantic Wall) or line forts (Maginot Line). They can be built in any territory that a power controlled at the beginning ot their turn. You may have as many blockhouses in a territory as the ipc value of the territory. They are placed on a border and only defend an attack from across the border they are placed on. They may be placed on the border of a seazone. A blockhouse placed on an island would be considered to be bordering the surrounding seazone.
Att:0 Def: 2 Move: 0 Cost: 10 Combines with infantry on a 1 to 1 basis to Defend at 4.
Starting blockhouses are owned and placed as follows:
France owns 4 in the territory of France. 1 on the border of Belgium-Holland and 3 on the border with Western Germany. Belgium-Holland owns 1 which is placed on the border with Western Germany.
All other rules at this time are OOB. But different rules for minors may be upcoming.
Central USA - 1 inf 1-mech 1-Bomb 1-Major Ind
Eastern USA - 2 inf 1-art 1-arm 1-fighter 1-Major Ind 1-NB 1-AB
SZ 101 - 1-Tranny 1-Dest 1-Cruis 1-BB
United Kingdom - 1-inf 3-fighter 1-Major Ind 1-NB 1-AB 1-AA
Normandy/Bordeaux - 1-inf 1-Art 1-Arm
Alexandria - 1 Inf 1-Art 1-Arm 1-Fighter
Egypt - 1-inf 1-Art 1-NB
Anglo-Egypt Sudan - 1-inf
West India - 1 inf
Ontario - 1 inf
Quebec - 1-inf 1-Arm 1-minor industry
South Africa - 1-Arm 1-inf 1-minor industry 1-NB
Gibralter - 1-NB 1-AB
Iceland - 1-NB
New Brunswick - 1-NB
SZ 125 - 1-Battleship
SZ 109 - 1-Tranny 1-Dest 1-Cruis 1-Battleship
SZ 106 - 1-Tranny 1-Cruis
SZ 91- 1-Dest 1-Carrier 1-TAC
SZ 85 - 1-Sub
SZ 71 - 1-Dest
SZ 98 - 1-Tranny 1-Dest 1-Cruis
French West Africa - 1-inf
Tunisia - 1-inf
Algeria - 1-inf
Morocco - 1-inf
Syria - 1-inf
South France - 2-inf 1-art 1-NB
Normandy/Bordeaux - 2-inf 1-arm 1-minor industry 1-NB
France - 5-inf 2-arm 1-Major industry 1-AB 3-blockhouse on WGER border 1-blockhouse on HOLBEG border
SZ 72 - 1-Dest
SZ 93 - 1-Dest 1-Cruis
SZ 105 - 1-Cruis
Novogorod - 3-inf 1-art 1-arm 1-fighter 1-minor industry 1-AB 1-NB 1-AA
Russia - 3-inf 1-Mech 1-art 1-arm 1-fighter 1-TAC 1-Bomber 1-Major industry 1-AB 1-AA
Volgograd - 1-Mech 1-Minor industry
Karelia - 2-inf 1-art
Vyborg - 2-inf
Belarus - 2-inf
Western Ukraine - 3-inf 1-arm
Ukraine - 3-inf 1-art 1-arm
Caucus - 1-inf
Archangel - 1-inf
SZ-115 - 1-Tranny 1-Battleship
SZ 137 - 1-Sub
Additional Minors Allied Leaning
Baltic States - 5-inf
East Poland - 2-inf
Poland - 6-inf
Denmark - 1-inf
Norway - 2-inf
Holland-Belgium - 5-inf 1-blockhouse on border of WGER
West Germany - 6-inf 1-art 1-fighter 1-arm 1-Major industry 1-NB 1-AB 1-AA
Germany - 10-inf 2-Mech 3-Art 2-Arm 2-fighter 3-TAC 1-Bomber 1-minor industry
Greater Southern Germany - 9-inf 1-art 2-arm
Slovakia-Hungary - 8-inf 2-art 2-arm 1-fighter
SZ 114 - 1-Tranny 1-Cruise 1-Battleship
SZ 113 - 1-Tranny 1-Cruise
SZ 124 - 1-sub
SZ 117 - 1-sub
SZ 118 - 1-sub
SZ 103 - 1-sub
SZ 108 - 1-sub
SZ 107 - 1-sub
Northern Italy - 2-inf 1-art 1-arm 1-fighter 1-minor industry 1-AB 1-AA
Southern Italy - 2-inf 1-mech 2-arm 1-fight 1-minor industry 1-NB 1-AA
Albania - 2-inf 1-arm
Sicily - 1-inf
Libya - 1-inf
Tobruk 2-inf 1-art
Ethiopia - 2-inf
Italian Somaliland - 1-inf
SZ 95 - 1-Tranny 1-curiser 1-Battleship
SZ 97 - 1-Tranny 1-destroyer 1-Cruiser
Additional Minors Axis Leaning:
Bessarabia - 1-inf
Romania - 3-inf
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