Weak France!

The sister game to Axis & Allies Pacific 1940. Due out August 24, 2010
aaron91
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:43 pm

Re: Weak France!

Post by aaron91 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:30 pm

I actually think the addition of 3 French units and 1 German bomber would not be that inherently unbalancing especially towards Sealion. Sealion generally takes place of G3. So if Germany must commit its air force to France on turn one to take it out they still have all of G2 to send out their airforce the attack the UK navy in preparation for a G3 Sealion. In fact with the addition of a bomber this may make Sealion easier. This should be tested. If there is a way to give France a more historical representation but still keep game balance and options open for the Euro Axis then I'm all for it. If it interrupts balance though and results in Germany losing being a foregone conclusion then obviously it should not be implemented. Personally I think France should have a small force in Indo-China but thats a different argument.

User avatar
Imperious leader
Posts: 5207
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:04 am
Location: Moving up to phase line red...

Re: Weak France!

Post by Imperious leader » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:51 pm

I ran the simulation if Germany brought over her entire land and air units in range.

Gave them 1 bomber extra.

France got 2 mech and 1 more fighter ( i guess a tank could work instead)

If you account for the west German forces coming at a -1 ( making just 1 artillery hitting at one, and the other 3 infantry, 4 mech being used for fodder.


So again German forces:

7 infantry,3 artillery, 4 mech, 5 tanks,3 fighters, 3 tac, 2 bombers ( 27 units)

(4 mech and 3 of the infantry have no value except fodder)

France:
6 infantry ( @+1), 2 artillery, 2 mech, 2 tanks, 2 fighters (14 units)

Result is 100% victory for Germany with 10,000 simulations.

Of course you can tweek and still use some units elsewhere, but the result is not some stupid claim that France will 'hold out' to win the game or other nonsense brought up by Mantlefan.

This is using Alpha 2 setup. But i already knew this result because i play-test my ideas unlike that other guy who just spouts off.

What this does is give UK more options. They don't spend the next turn building a navy they should not be losing AUTOMATICALLY like France should be losing with minimal force, because somebody thinks this is fun. Germany can build something other than Transports for 2 turns and sealion will be regulated for use in games where UK does something stupid like not protect UK ( which should be the only reason why Sealion should succeed). This allows Germany the new option of being a land power and having more units against Russia and for building up her subs to destroy IPC from UK.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

mantlefan
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:33 pm

Re: Weak France!

Post by mantlefan » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:45 pm

This is just too ripe:
Imperious leader wrote:sealion will be regulated for use in games where UK does something stupid like not protect UK ( which should be the only reason why Sealion should succeed).
So you are against sealion. Don't deny it, you said it right there!

Your statement means you don't want sealion to be a viable option (Requiring that one side make a huge mistake for Sealion to work does not equal viability.)

You claim you want to make the game play out more according to player choice and less according to a historical script, yet you want to make an entire German strategy effectively impossible?

You say right there you want to take an entire German strategy off the table. You accuse me of wanting to make everything easy for Germany. Now you want it to be impossible to Germany to take UK unless UK makes a giant mistake?

Do you not realize that your "playtest" requires nearly all of Germany's planes? Somehow the game is supposed to still be balanced when UK keeps its navy and Germany gets ONE BOMBER in exchange? You said it yourself, Sealion becomes only possible when the UK makes a huge mistake, and this leads to UK knowing it is totally safe to neuter Italy

Of course, you don't think anything through beyond the most narrow of courses, so you probably don't understand any of this.

WHY is a UK mistake the only reason Sealion should succeed? WHY?

Because you don't like Sealion?

Because Sealion is ahistorical?

Why?
“A lie never lives to be old.” — Sophocles

User avatar
Imperious leader
Posts: 5207
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:04 am
Location: Moving up to phase line red...

Re: Weak France!

Post by Imperious leader » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:25 pm

So you are against sealion. Don't deny it, you said it right there!
Wrong again. I am against an easy Sealion and one that means that Germany wont face anything like it did historically. What you seem not to grasp is not being for an easy Sealion is not being against it. What you want is a guarantee that UK falls no matter what. That is plain absurd.
Your statement means you don't want sealion to be a viable option (Requiring that one side make a huge mistake for Sealion to work does not equal viability.)
NO again. A viable option if UK does something stupid, just like it should be in the case where Germany attacks France with light forces and manages to lose due to dice gods.

get it right for a change.
You claim you want to make the game play out more according to player choice and less according to a historical script, yet you want to make an entire German strategy effectively impossible?
NO you got it wrong again. I want both: Historical and options. get it right for a change.
You say right there you want to take an entire German strategy off the table. You accuse me of wanting to make everything easy for Germany. Now you want it to be impossible to Germany to take UK unless UK makes a giant mistake?
NO you got it wrong again. I said make is a option and only in a historical sense like it should be.
Do you not realize that your "playtest" requires nearly all of Germany's planes? Somehow the game is supposed to still be balanced when UK keeps its navy and Germany gets ONE BOMBER in exchange? You said it yourself, Sealion becomes only possible when the UK makes a huge mistake, and this leads to UK knowing it is totally safe to neuter Italy
Dum Dum: It does, but does not have too. UK navy staying in exchange for what? 14 German transports? sounds like a good trade. Looks even historical since now UK has some options and Germany can still try sealion. UK can send the fleet to medd or whatnot.

Extra German bomber will be used well too.
Of course, you don't think anything through beyond the most narrow of courses, so you probably don't understand any of this.
I don't understand your gibberish, you are correct only in that. I don't understand why UK can't have some options, or France, or Germany with her new bomber. Nope. Nor do i understand what the waste of 2 turns worth of transports could be for exchange with countless other units that Germany can build and gain other options. Funny how that works..
WHY is a UK mistake the only reason Sealion should succeed? WHY?
You got it wrong again. I didn't say it was the Only reason. Get it right or don't post. I said if UK with her fleet goes south or invades Norway, or something else far away from UK she stands a poor chance against sealion.

Sealion failed because Hitler could not bother with the UK navy and air force. If Hitler builds up both, she can still try sealion, though not on G1 or G2/3.

This gives UK more options, while the extra bomber gives Germany a new option ( to bomb UK with 5 planes, rather than 4)
Because you don't like Sealion?
I love Sealion, just only when it has its place in a situation where it could succeed, not some guaranteed chance of success and then followed by a number of countermeasures to fight back. It should either succeed and finish UK, or destroy Germany and end the game. That is the gamble it should represent. Not the nonsense you want.
Because Sealion is ahistorical?
No because it should be historical and give players options ( not just Germany)

get over it.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

Caractacus
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:18 am
Location: Turku, Finland

Re: Weak France!

Post by Caractacus » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:23 pm

You know, for a while I even thought that I was involved in this thread...


This is like sitting in the pub with two blokes arguing and me saying occasionally,

"Yeah, but guys, I..."

"Hey, why don't we..."

"You know what, I...um...guys...?"

:roll:
Caractacus.

User avatar
Imperious leader
Posts: 5207
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:04 am
Location: Moving up to phase line red...

Re: Weak France!

Post by Imperious leader » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:48 pm

You know, for a while I even thought that I was involved in this thread...
Well to get back in the thing, just post your idea. I wont attack it out of hand like that other guy or argue and claim you are stupid for posting it or get your idea wrong completely and argue about rubbish that has nothing to do with your points.

I may compare it to mine or support it.

The only issue is to balance the game, while making France slightly stronger and at the same time getting Germany to pay more than token forces to defeat France.

This can save part ( not all of the UK navy) and at the same time give UK some more options. The entire reason why AAE40 needed changes ( e.g. Alpha) was due to easy sealion and Major factory in Norway. Now the German player can still essentially succeed at sealion, but face an eventual defeat in the long run or get lucky and pull it out.

I feel UK should have most of its fleet at start, just like Italy should have its fleet at start. The problem before was Sealion became automatic, since UK went after Italy on UK1, which Germany had its only measure to save Italy by forcing Sealion.

All these things are not fun or realistic and really does not convey any reality of what Germany is supposed to be doing in games ( they are a land power and not a naval transport power).

TO give the French a few units will get Germany to commit enough extra forces to place the sealion prospect more accurately in terms of reality and realism as well as fun factor.

I think Germany getting that extra bomber now gives them a good airborne force and is more accurate in terms of what they had ( they had more bombers than fighters in 1940)

I also think Germany should get a Siegfried line boosting infantry +1 against allied units invading west Germany ( at least for one round)

2 cents
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

Striker
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:44 pm

Re: Weak France!

Post by Striker » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:54 pm

If the UK fleet was made more survivable by increasing france's strength, the best counter might be to buff the Italian fleet's survivability somehow. As it is, even if germany does everything it can to help italy's fleet(kill the spain cruiser, land two fighters in italy airbase) the UK still has a 50/50 chance of wiping out half the Italian fleet on it's turn if it commits all it can(read the battle report i did where it nearly succeeded)

User avatar
Imperious leader
Posts: 5207
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:04 am
Location: Moving up to phase line red...

Re: Weak France!

Post by Imperious leader » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:15 pm

Yes well Italy is another situation. Because UK has the ships to do the job, it makes it too tempting to just weaken Italy before they themselves have any chance to fight officially.


If Italy was neutral till her turn, the UK player might split up the naval to fight them latter, but at least Italy has a chance to use what it starts with.

The same issue with UK is at hand, they have all these ships and they always are sunk right off the bat on the first turn.

AA has always featured this 'thing' where each player who plays first just nukes the other guys fleet on the first game turn. This makes no sence whatsoever and it also leads to scripted play. If it is the best move among others, it will be done each time and the game starts off the same way each time.

If you instead were allowed to keep your fleets intact at the games start, you get more options. Once you lose your fleet due to the cost of rebuilding, some players ( Italy) have a harder time to get back to where they even started. I am not aware in any other type of game or wargame where all the fleets get nuked right off the bat because everybody is taking advantage of being able to play before the next guy.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests