Air Craft Carriers compared to Air Bases

Link up A&A Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940, and you've got Axis & Allies Global 1940.
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Larry
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Re: Air Craft Carriers compared to Air Bases

Post by Larry » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:03 am

What you’re really talking about here is the difficulty of recruiting new players to the world of A&A. You might want to start them off with A&A 1941. It was designed as an intro game. This air bases and carrier aircraft range thing is probably more of a contrived excuse when attempting to explain why one does not like this game. Let’s face it... A&A ain’t for everybody. I think it’s a rather special type of person that is drawn to this game. I always call em the best and brightest. And based on your many post over the years that would certainly include you Builder_Chris

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Builder_Chris
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Re: Air Craft Carriers compared to Air Bases

Post by Builder_Chris » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:44 am

Garsh, thanks for the compliment.
And I decided to take your advice and start with introducing new players to the more simplified 1941. I've been playing AA for so long I forget that I too started with the more simplified classic, G40 is a lot of game to wrap ones mind around.
Peace.
Construimus, Batuimus -- "We Build, We Fight.".....we party all night!

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Yavid
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Re: Air Craft Carriers compared to Air Bases

Post by Yavid » Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:02 am

The only way I got the bonus range coming from a carrier was the "pretty" pics in the Classic rule book. I personal don't like airbases I don't think they do enough for the cost.
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jwingram
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Re: Air Craft Carriers compared to Air Bases

Post by jwingram » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:53 pm

Yavid wrote:The only way I got the bonus range coming from a carrier was the "pretty" pics in the Classic rule book. I personal don't like airbases I don't think they do enough for the cost.
I agree. They cost the same as naval bases but, because there are no 2-hit aircraft, do not repair damaged aircraft. The cost should be reduced or airbases should be beefed up somehow.

(On the other hand, I also think naval bases are vastly overpowered, repairing an unlimited number of damaged ships each round for no cost! At the very least the units should not be able to attack/move during the round they are repaired and should not be fully repaired until the "Place Units" phase).

My suggestion would be to somehow have an airbase beef up anti-aircraft fire, although I concede that increasing the efficiency of anti-aircraft fire could have an adverse impact on playing time as even more forces are required to be built up, could make Europe more difficult for the Axis, and could make the Pacific much more difficult for the Allies.

Perthaps an airbase could allow your first AA shot when the territory is attacked to be rolled at a 2 or less, with all subsequenct AA shots being rolled at a 1. That, plus the increased movement, might be worth the cost without seriously affecting the amount of force required to take a territory.

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Re: Air Craft Carriers compared to Air Bases

Post by WILD BILL » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:25 pm

jwingram when comparing airbases to naval bases I think you might be forgetting that airbases also can scramble air units to defend your navy, and protect your shores form amphibs. That is a powerful tool in itself. Many ppl feel that the naval base is underpowered in comparison, although I agree that repairs could be maxed at 3 ships instead of unlimited.

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Re: Air Craft Carriers compared to Air Bases

Post by jwingram » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:32 pm

WILD BILL wrote:jwingram when comparing airbases to naval bases I think you might be forgetting that airbases also can scramble air units to defend your navy, and protect your shores form amphibs. That is a powerful tool in itself. Many ppl feel that the naval base is underpowered in comparison, although I agree that repairs could be maxed at 3 ships instead of unlimited.
With respects, that is nowhere near as powerful as the ability to instantaneously repair an unlimited number of capital ships per turn. Essentially, naval bases give many times their value back in IPCs if actually used for repairs.

Frankly, naval bases should not provide unlimited free repairs. They should be required for repairs to happen, but there should be some cost associated with it or there should be a limit to how many units per turn can be repaired (and I would set that limit at one unit per turn).

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Re: Air Craft Carriers compared to Air Bases

Post by WILD BILL » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:27 am

Well. we agree that repairs at a naval base should be limited lets start there. I think the magic number should be 3 ships max (same as air scramble). I also think you should pay for repairs (as you do), and should look at rolling 1 dice per ship to determine repair damage (1-6). Lets face it a max of 6 IPCs to save a carrier or battleships is still a good deal, but it might only cost you 1 IPC (I like keeping the dice involved). At this point a house rule is all we are going to get though (way to late for changes for the base game).

When you talk about repairs being too powerful I assume you are talking about a defensive fleet parked at a naval base being attacked. Then having their capital ships survive the initial assault, and repair for free when their turn starts. I agree that free repairs for multiple capital ships can be like winning the lottery (see above), but you can't discount the ability to scramble. Most naval bases work in conjunction with an air base like Philp, Hawaii, Queensland, W Germany, England and so on. So a couple things come to mind.

1st is that generally speaking you might not have the opportunity to repair those capital ships in the first place if you couldn't scramble those 3 planes to defend your fleet rolling three extra 4's.

2nd is that as the attacker(s) you should see that your opponent can auto repair, and set up a second attack by another power to knock out those capital ships before they repair if possible (game planning). Of coarse the dice have to cooperate, and the ability for the defender to scramble 3 new planes for that second battle could make things interesting.

Anyway, respectfully, I still think that scrambling in general out ways repairs, and takes place many more times in a game then repairs do. In every game I can think of scramming (or the ability to do so) has saved (or cost) more IPCs then repairs (rolling three 4's can alter any sea battle). Even the ability to scramble can stop an attack from happening in the first place (saving IPCs).

I don't know if you have the 1st edition of G40, or were involved with the original alpha project (Alpha+1). The original game gave unlimited scramble, but only to island air bases (way too powerful having like 10 air units scramble). It also seem weird that Japan (an island) could scramble, but England (not an island by rule) couldn't scramble. It was changed to only 3 units could scramble, but allowed any air base on the coast to scramble (like we have now). I bring this up because at that time we were looking at how powerful air base scramble was, and the change made a lot of sense (still does). I think at that time we didn't take a real good look at how powerful free repairs to capital ships can be in a game (although I think there was some conversation of it). I think many test results from the community didn't go the distance to play out some of those major sea battles to see a power like Japan or the USA take like 8-10 hits before losing a ship, then auto repair on their turn. Maybe we missed an opportunity back then (or it was vetoed), but at this point I can't see anything other then a house rule for it.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see something like I outlined in the first paragraph, and might house rule it in. I think that free auto repairs is BS, and it should cost something. I just believe that you underestimate the power of scramble compared to auto repair, or how entwined the two abilities are.

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