The Russian Revolution

Breaking away from the Second World War and paying a visit and tribute to the First World War. Coming this March, 2013
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Flashman
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The Russian Revolution

Post by Flashman » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:42 pm

I appreciate that the Russian Revolution is an optional rule, but quite frankly as written it makes no sense, leaves several questions unanswered, and needs to be completely rewritten.

At the very least, an additional rule must be added to deal with what happens to Russian controlled territories in the west, which seem to come under the protection of impenetrable force fields making them immune to attack.

Was this possibility never considered?

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Aran55633
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Re: The Russian Revolution

Post by Aran55633 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:10 pm

As someone who will probably play exclusively as the Central Powers, you have a bit of a point. By the time you reach the point where this event can be triggered, you know that Russia is on its knees... So why would I, as the person playing the Central Powers, want to trigger an event which would prevent me from capturing any territory I don't already own, including, most critically, Moscow?

I'll certainly avoid triggering it, and would prefer to simply play without it as it currently is... The big question is, how would you even rewrite it? I'm not really sure how it could be implemented...

WILD BILL
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Re: The Russian Revolution

Post by WILD BILL » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:10 pm

The first thing to do would be to have all Russian units outside of orig Russian land removed from the board if/when the Revolution occurs, and to also remove all Russian control markers as well (as Flash has pointed out), not allowing them to hold on to territories they have captured from the enemy, or neutrals. This would be part of the armistice forcing the Russians to give up any territorial gains made through the war (pretty standard if your losing IMO).

Then you don't have the Russians sacrificing themselves by sending a large force south to gain certain strategic territories like Constantinople possibly making it impregnable if the Germans go though with forcing a revolution. This would be a CP capital that the CP wouldn't be able to liberate the rest of the game if the Russians are forced into Revolution.


I'm not sure if the allies should be able to use the Russian Revolution to their advantage to this degree. The CP need Paris or London + one other allied capital to win, and the Revolution would place Moscow off the table (acceptable).

Likewise the allies need Berlin + one other CP capital to win, and the Russians could capture Constantinople or possibly even Vienna in the hope that the Germans are dumb enough to force the revolution, and the CP couldn't liberate them. I just don't see the Russians with their backs against the wall cutting a deal with the Germans that would allow them to keep such gains made during the war.


Now I know that the Germans hold the cards, and would elect to not force the Revolution, but I think that it still gives the Russians to much power, and doesn't really reflect the situation of the time. The CP would defiantly need to take a good look at the board before forcing the revolution.

Edit:
Another thing that Flash brings up is that the Revolution occurs on Russia's turn, and this could take the cards out of the CP hands. Say the Germans are circling Moscow and at the end of their turn they have control over 2 adjacent territories, and the 3rd is contested (they also have control over a 4th orig Russian territory as well). Because of how the contested territories work, all the Russians need to do is to pull back from the contested territory and the Germans will take control of it, forcing the Revolution on Russia's turn (on their terms?). On the same Russian turn they could have also captured Constantinople making it off limits blindsiding the CP.


Larry, do you have some thoughts or reservations on this rule?
Last edited by WILD BILL on Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Imperious leader
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Re: The Russian Revolution

Post by Imperious leader » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:21 pm

Well first St. Petersburg needs to be the capital.

Second, if the Russia Economy drops to X that should trigger collapse.

That would cut out ambiguities.

Then it should be a decision for the CP player if he wants to accept it and if he does they keep only the areas they control. All other areas remain Russian controlled and nobody can enter them.

If the CP player causes collapse, but wants to fight on he can.

His decision would depend on the situation, but if he decides to fight on and not accept surrender it would be a fight to the bitter end. Russia is not out of the game in this case till her last piece is wiped out.

That's all you need.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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ossel
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Re: The Russian Revolution

Post by ossel » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:16 am

I think an obvious goodie you can throw to the CP's is (as Flash has pointed out) to make the Revolution fulfill one of their victory requirements. This makes historical sense, as Lenin was essentially a German agent, and it gives Germany and Austria incentive to foment the revolution.

I personally favor adding Soviet units to simulate the Civil War, but I doubt that will make it into any official game.

At the end of the day, though, I agree with Wild Bill that you have to remove control markers. The idea that the revolution can create these bubbles of territory immune to CP attack is a bit silly.

WILD BILL
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Re: The Russian Revolution

Post by WILD BILL » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:47 am

Just a little tid bit about the revolution.

A little background, we are playing our first game and just reached the end of the 3rd turn. We are muddling through with how the contested territories work, neutrals amphibs, air support/art etc...and having a great time BTW. All powers have invested pretty heavy in ftrs as air supremacy seems to be the theme, for us anyway. I'm the CP and went pretty hard at Russia with A/H & Germany, even the Turks are on Russian soil. The Germans are holding a determined French & English army off German territory, and the A/H are battling with the Italians as most CP units headed east to Russia. Wow do the allies have naval supremacy in this game, I see why def art fire twice in amphibs (the so called good guys are really bitching LOL)

Third turn I ended up with A/H on the Ukraine (about 35 units), Germany on Belarus (also with about 35 units), next to each other. The CP were in good supportive position and could counter attack if he made an attack on either of them, plus the defender gets better rolls, and the other would most likely get air support in the counter attack. He certainly couldn't attack both, so he did what the Russians do in most A&A games just kept backing off all the way to Moscow (I'd say around 60 units after his 3rd turn buy).

The 3rd turn ended about 4 AM, with A/H up next when we called it a night (will continue in a day or so). Today we were looking at the board and realized that the Russians could be screwed (really didn't catch it the night before). A/H has control of Ukraine and will have Tartarstan turn 4 as well. Germany controls Belarus, Livonia and Finland. The A/H 35 man army is going to boldly storm into the 60 Russian units now def Moscow. If the A/H army survives the assault with just one man this will leave Moscow a contested territory. As a contested territory the Russians can't make attacks into my CP controlled territories on their 4th turn to liberate or contest them (and I only have 1 inf in Livonia LOL).

So the Revolution will take place at the end of the Russians 4th turn, and they can't do squat although they have a massive army as long as at least one of my A/H inf survives. Now this has more or less just been a practice run to see how things work. I just wanted to point this out so other Russian players see it coming, and don't do just a complete with draw to Moscow. You have to fight, or take some chances to contest territories as you withdraw.

My German units (not even seen much action) will be free to return home to def the Fatherland and push the French/English off the continent. Now were did I put their train tickets...........

VonLettowVorbeck1914
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Re: The Russian Revolution

Post by VonLettowVorbeck1914 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:18 am

Now the problem is not with force fields but that if the CP want to try to take moscow as a capital, the Allies need only to contest it until Russia's turn and unless the CP artificially avoids 3 TT's adjacent to moscow, The revolution occurs and Moscow is lost forever for the CP.

pellulo
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Re: The Russian Revolution

Post by pellulo » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:12 pm

Let's face it, it would be too easy, if there was no revolution, thanks, Pellulo
Pellulo

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