Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Breaking away from the Second World War and paying a visit and tribute to the First World War. Coming this March, 2013
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Krieghund
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Re: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Post by Krieghund » Wed May 01, 2013 1:35 pm

Another alternative would be to use a rule similar to that in AA40: each sub rolls one die, rolls of 4 or higher are ignored and all others are totaled.

Sounds good to me.
LH
A&A Developer and Playtester

"War is much more fun when you're winning!" - General Martok

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Chacmool
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Re: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Post by Chacmool » Wed May 01, 2013 7:09 pm

Krieghund wrote:Another alternative would be to use a rule similar to that in AA40: each sub rolls one die, rolls of 4 or higher are ignored and all others are totaled.

Sounds good to me.
LH
I like that one.
After Germany has declared USW every time the US/BE collect its income, the Germany Player rolls one die for each sub he has (instead of is located in SZ 2,7,8 since they have no chance to survive there for one round) At least this will make people think about declaring USW earlier in a game!

I think you've got to limit and to define where it is.
"Books and bullets have their own destinies"

Ernst Jünger

VonLettowVorbeck1914
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Re: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Post by VonLettowVorbeck1914 » Wed May 01, 2013 8:05 pm

I am pretty sure KH was no suggesting it would be in any SZ, it would still be the 3 usual SZ's.

Although, it would be interesting to have the rule your way, but perhaps outside of all SZ's next to an originally CP naval base. Global had restrictions for the UK NO of no German subs that it be outside of Black, Caspian, and Baltic seas, this would be simpler.

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Flashman
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Re: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Post by Flashman » Fri May 17, 2013 5:39 pm

Just another wild idea that Flashed in to my noggin:

Replace the whole USW idea with

BLOCKADE.

That is:

Assign each coastal area (certainly all "Homeland" regions) an "import" value, representing the share of overseas trade likely to come into that tt. This might also apply to captured neutral tts.
The value might be directly related to the IPC value of the tt concerned.

In order to collect the import value (or if you prefer the IPCs of the tt itself) the SZ(s) adjacent to the tt must be completely free of enemy warships during the collect income phase.

This would work very differently for the different powers. For example at one extreme Austria has only one coastal area to defend with its entire navy. Scotland, on the other hand, borders no less than 3 SZs, making its import value particularly difficult to protect especially against submarines with their submerge ability.

A single U-boat in SZ1 blockades the entire American import market!

A British warship in SZ10 blockades German imports through Kiel, but also through Holland, Denmark & Norway if Germany has taken control of them. Allied warships in SZ 11 would be even more serious for the Kaiser.

Extend this to the entire map, and you suddenly see why Britain needed such a large navy; and why the closest it came to defeat was by the U-boat scourge.

This would make submarines the menacing war-winning weapon they sometimes seemed to be in both wars, rather than the limp naval canon-fodder they so often become in Axis and Allies.

There are just a couple of problems with some SZs, notable the Adriatic - Italy gets nothing for Venice unless the Allies sink the entire Austrian fleet, and then there's Tuscany: if SZ17 is free, does it still recieve full import value? Should the import value of a tt be split between all adjacent SZs, or just one import icon placed on a coastline? (in the case of Tuscany this would be on the Italian side.)

Perhaps I should think only in terms of ports being blockaded, in which case there is no problem with identifying the appropriate SZ, but what about Karelia? Maybe have to add more ports to places like Canada, Scotland...

Or, just assign a "National Import" icon to each SZ as appropriate; these values are in addition to normal income, but are only collected if the SZ is "free" during collect income.

WILD BILL
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Re: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Post by WILD BILL » Mon May 20, 2013 5:32 pm

Couple ideas to make Unrestricted Sub Warfare more viable for game play, and base it loosely on history. There were multiple warnings from Wilson about unrestricted sub warfare throughout the years, and the Germans attacked all the waters around the United Kingdom (not just the sea lanes between Canada & England). I think that we should look at expanding the sz's that can be attacked, and link the number of attacks to trigger an early DOW by the US (but still have a fail safe for the US to come in on turn 4).

1st Proposal (unrestricted sub warfare):

Have all the sz's that surround the United Kingdom (plus sz2 off Canada) eligible for unrestricted sub warfare (USW) on the UKs collect income phase (these would be sz's 2,3,4,7,8 & 9). Attacking these sz's effects only the UK econ at this time until the US is at war (see later), at which time sz 2, 7 & 8 would also hit the US econ on their respective turn (sz's 3,4 & 9 can only ever effect the UK econ)**Here's the kicker, the Germans are allowed to perform up to 3 successful attacks on the UK's economy before they trigger a US DOW. A successful attack is when the Germans attack a single sz (could be w/multiple subs), and it costs the UK IPC's (at least one of their sub dice hit for that sz). A hit would be the same as the new rule, a roll of 3 or less (you tally all hits).

This could include 3 sz's w/successful attacks on one turn by 4-5 subs, or subs attacking UK sz's over multiple turns tallying up to 3 successful econ attacks, but no more then 3 successful attacks in total, or else you trigger the US. To be clear, if they attack a sz, and it doesn't result in a loss of income, then that attack wouldn't count towards the 3 that the Germans are allowed to perform (before they trigger the US). If at any time the Germans have performed more then 3 successful attacks on the UK econ it will allow the US to DOW on the very next US turn (if not already at war). In retrospect the Germans could attack more then 3 sz's, and the US could still be left out (not enough successful strikes), but if the Germans screw up and attack 4-5 sz's, and have more success then expected, it would draw the US into the war. As a fail safe (and just for sake of argument), the US receives a copy of the Zimmerman Telegraph at the beginning of their 4th turn and in light of the Germans attempt to bring the Mexicans into the war, and their intention to continue USW (which is in the letter) they can DOW at the beginning of the US 4th turn (as OOB).

This will allow the Germans to make some early attacks on the UK econ, but the US only comes into the war early if they over do it (disregarding multiple US warnings).


2nd proposal (to make subs more enticing for USW, and cruisers more valuable):

Only allow cruisers to attack subs. Because this game has no DD's, allow cruisers to take on a larger role to fill that void. I wouldn't go as far as saying a cruiser can stop a subs abilities (moving past enemy surface ships, or submerge), but if you attack a fleet containing enemy subs, only your cruisers can hit them (def still chooses casualties though). This would allow for more subs to survive after they submerge (a submerged sub can still be taken as a casualty in this game, but would probably face fewer shots). If a sub is in the attacking fleet, then all ships would be able to hit it when they return fire, I wouldn't want a situation where a lone defending BB is unable to defend itself (but maybe you do?). Many have said that the allies forgo buying cruisers because BB's are so cheap, and perform better (is true IMO), this could change things up a bit if the CP invest heavily in subs, and the allies start losing their starting cruisers.

BTW on G4, if the Germans are able, it may behoove them to set up to make a 4th attack on the UK econ, and have that sz be one that can be double dipped (2, 7 or 8') because the US will be coming in anyway. If you use the cruiser modification, the US might not be able to kill off your sub(s) because they only start w/1cruiser.

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Chacmool
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Re: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Post by Chacmool » Mon May 27, 2013 10:50 am

For the last weeks I tried out different USW-rules.
Finally I found a solution I am really happy with. It makes the Germany player declare USW at least very often, Cruisers are more important in the game and the USW has the historical impact:

At the beginning of each Round Germany can declare USW.

USW will take place in SZs 2,3,4,5,7,8,9,15.

If Germany has moved at least one Sub into an USW-SZ, and that SZ doesn`t have an enemy Cruiser in it, it is allowed to roll the special USW 12-SIDED DICE (makes it more dramatic to bring that big one into play but you can also throw two 6-sided Dice nevertheless there will be no results of 1).
The result will be split (if uneven US will lose less than GB) and is taken away from the IPCs of the British Empire and the US.

If US loses income because of USW at least 2 times it will declare war on Germany.
"Books and bullets have their own destinies"

Ernst Jünger

xxstefanx
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Re: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Post by xxstefanx » Mon May 27, 2013 8:02 pm

It is long overdue to be changed to taking place in the submarine players turn as an economic attack (similar to SBR). Stop this "sitting duck" bullshit in the Allied turns finally.

1. German (or whatever subs) attack a certain SZ as a merchant ship attack in their turn.
2. Roll of 1-2-3 per sub as KH pointed out. (or give the SZs Convoy Values for intensity of traffic / freight being shipped))

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Chacmool
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Re: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare

Post by Chacmool » Tue May 28, 2013 2:52 am

xxstefanx wrote:It is long overdue to be changed to taking place in the submarine players turn as an economic attack (similar to SBR). Stop this "sitting duck" bullshit in the Allied turns finally.

1. German (or whatever subs) attack a certain SZ as a merchant ship attack in their turn.
2. Roll of 1-2-3 per sub as KH pointed out. (or give the SZs Convoy Values for intensity of traffic / freight being shipped))
This 1-2-3 Rolls suck because they leave a 50% chance that declaring USW will have absolutely NO affect!! Who would take the risk bringing US for sure into war with that poor chances?
I want this USW much more historical. USW is like attacking transports, You don´t even have to roll dice in a seafight. They cannot shoot back and will get sunk by subs when they meet in the USW zone. So attacking a USW-seazone without a cruiser in it and rolling a 12sided dice with guaranteed results will give a bigger impact and is also a nice balancing tool in favour of the screwed CPs in this game.
"Books and bullets have their own destinies"

Ernst Jünger

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