Italy

Breaking away from the Second World War and paying a visit and tribute to the First World War. Coming this March, 2013
Hobbes599
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Italy

Post by Hobbes599 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:57 pm

I do not like the fact that Italy is at war from the start. In fact Italy was pro-central powers in 1914. So I propose a new rule: italy begins the game at war with nobody. All powers may move into Italy but doing so is an act of war and focus italy to joins the other side. Italy may only move into it's owe territories. At the begging of italy's third turn Italy may chose if it wants to join either side. If it joins that side it will be at.war with the other side.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

WILD BILL
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Re: Italy

Post by WILD BILL » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:43 pm

Hobbs, although I think you may have a good point, I don't think that for game play you could have Italy fence sitting and able to join either side, or switch their alliance. I think it would sway it too much and unbalance the game (or maybe it would restore balance that seems to be leaning heavily to the allies OOB LOL).



I have been thinking about (as others have) delaying Italy from entering on the allies side until their first turn (maybe even turn 2). Have them start off as neutral, but at the end of their first turn (or beginning of their 2nd turn) they fully join the allies. This would allow Austria some ship movement in the Med to amphib French or English coastal territories (move through sz17), or even a neutral like Greece or Spanish Morocco. Of coarse if the CP decided to attack Italy or any of its controlled territories (including Albania because it is assigned to Italy), then Italy would reciprocate a DOW immediately and the CP wouldn't be able to move through sz 17 freely.

I suppose you could allow Italy to activate Albania as a neutral power because it is assigned to them, I wouldn't allow the other allies to enter any Italian controlled territory or Albania until Italy is officially on the allies side though (either through a CP attack, or timed activation).

Just my 2 cents

Coastcityo
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Re: Italy

Post by Coastcityo » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:24 am

Yes, Italy was technically allied with the Centeal Powersbefore hostilities broke out. But, as has been mentioned in other places as well, they were also secretly allied with France, in a secret pact that would allow them to remain neutral if Germany invaded France. Furthermore, and probably more important than their secret treaty with France, was the distrust and open hostility between Italy and A-H. It had only been a few decades since the Risorgimento had resulted in the creation of modern Italy, and this had been achieved through Italy liberate large areas of their north from nearly a century of Austrian occupation. Many other territories claimed by Italy still remained under Austrian rule, and was a point of contention between the two nations. Austria-Hungary itself, so distrusted their Italian allies, that they had written up invasion plans for an attack on Italy before the war even broke out, and so obviously well before Italy's neutrality or joining of the Entente. Therefore, allowing A-H to invade Italy on turn one actually becomes truly historical, and would ndivate that Larry truly is a game designer hat takes actual history into account.

The bigger problem of Italy and A-H in this game isn't so much Italy joining too soon or being with the Entente from turn one or even A-H being able to attack on turn one. The bigger problem, is that the Austrians are way more powerful in this game, than was historically accurate. Cases in point. The Russian army was not the best fighting force in this war, and only actually had one single successful offensive in the three years before the Revolution, and that offensive was against he Austrians. It was so successful, that it basically destroyed the entire A-H army on he Russian front, and might have even knocked hem out of the war if Russian reinforcements had arrived in time to march on Vienna. The second example, would be on the Italian front, where historically the Italians had moved into A-H territory, but slowly as the mountains and trenches and poor Italian leadership delayed any chances for a major advance. The Austrians did launch a successful offensive that drove Italy out of Austria, as well as threatened the city of Venice itself, but this offensive was the result more of bad Italian leadership and the Russian Revolution freeing up German troops to assist than anything else. The Italians counter-attacked the Austrians, now fighting without their German allies (who had been moved to the French front), and resulted in a major Italian victory. The Austrian army was again smashed. The Italians began driving into Austrian territory, and "liberated" many of the contested territories from before the war. Including the entire Dalmation coast. These captured territories would become the Italian territories they gained following the war. I realize that an Austria barely able to hold its own against Russia and Italy wouldn't be very good from a gaming perspective, and was obviously done for a game balance issue. But I do get a little tired of the usual Italian bashing going on.

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Flashman
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Re: Italy

Post by Flashman » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:53 pm

Italy neutral R1.

Cannot move/collect income/buy.

Austrian decision:

a) attack Italy A1 to get a foothold in Venice, but bringing Italy in a turn early.

or

b) leave Italy for now and in effect deny them a whole turn.

Austria would almost certainly attack Italy A2 (no reason not to), so makes sense for the Italian DOW to be effective at the start of the game Round 2.

Coastcityo
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Re: Italy

Post by Coastcityo » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:46 am

I don't get the restriction on Italy for buying and moving and collecting IPCs. The USA has four turns of collecting and buying as they prepare to enter the war, and can also be drawn in early. So, why deny the Italians the same abilities?

Heck, historically Italy attacked first, so why even deny them the right to strike first on R1? The Austrian's already have a huge advantage in income and war material over their historical reality entering the war, and versus an Italy that either equalled or exceeded them. How many more advantages do they need? Every post I see on any forum discussing this game that details a CP victory always has one thing in common, A-H concurs the Balkans and Italy, becomes an economic and military juggernaut, and cruises into France to win the war. I know it doesn't happen every game, but it seems to happen in every CP victory.

Additionally, in a three or four player game, Italy also controls Russia and the USA. Adding all these advantages to Austria will help crush Russia and Italy that much quicker, as well as putting the US in a position where their late entry becomes even less helpful to the Entente. As well as making the gaming experience of the I/R/US player even worse than the current "just hold on long enough to give the US a chance to turn the tide" it is now. I thought the point was to have a good game for all, and not just to make things easier for the CP.

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Aran55633
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Re: Italy

Post by Aran55633 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:57 pm

Coastcityo wrote:I don't get the restriction on Italy for buying and moving and collecting IPCs. The USA has four turns of collecting and buying as they prepare to enter the war, and can also be drawn in early. So, why deny the Italians the same abilities?
I agree with this.
Coastcityo wrote:Heck, historically Italy attacked first, so why even deny them the right to strike first on R1? The Austrian's already have a huge advantage in income and war material over their historical reality entering the war, and versus an Italy that either equalled or exceeded them. How many more advantages do they need? Every post I see on any forum discussing this game that details a CP victory always has one thing in common, A-H concurs the Balkans and Italy, becomes an economic and military juggernaut, and cruises into France to win the war. I know it doesn't happen every game, but it seems to happen in every CP victory.

Additionally, in a three or four player game, Italy also controls Russia and the USA. Adding all these advantages to Austria will help crush Russia and Italy that much quicker, as well as putting the US in a position where their late entry becomes even less helpful to the Entente. As well as making the gaming experience of the I/R/US player even worse than the current "just hold on long enough to give the US a chance to turn the tide" it is now. I thought the point was to have a good game for all, and not just to make things easier for the CP.
I agree with some of the points on historical accuracy. With the rest, I disagree.

You say we shouldn't be trying to "make things easier for the CP". Perhaps that was a poor choice of words on your part... The general consensus, of course, is that the Central Powers DO need some sort of advantage.

We can argue over what type of boost they need, and I don't disagree that it's ahistorical to have Austria-Hungary being quite so powerful, but I don't believe anyone could honestly argue that they don't need some help.

Coastcityo
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Re: Italy

Post by Coastcityo » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:21 am

I've conceded the reason for A-H being much stronger than they should hope to be historically is purely a game mechanic meant for balance. I understand the need for that, but don't understand the need for increasing the CP's odds purely on the backs of Italy. I've seen the discussions to reduce the French fleet, and I can see that. But not discussions to hamstring Italy further than they already are.

One of my biggest beefs with further restrictions on Italy has more to do with the gaming experience, than simple historical accuracy. Most 1914 games I come across, are played as three or four player games. And those games both have one thing in common for dividing forces up, and that is Russia and Italy and the USA being controlled by a single player. And, who would want to play that team with an even weaker Italy? Russia is already a lost cause, the whole strategy is summed up as "don't lose too fast". USA has to wait to come in, not even able to load transports early, and all they do is spend for the first part of the game. And now, I keep seeing heads about beefing Italy further. I've got Russia probably collapsing in three turns or so. I'm already waiting for USA to come in. And now, my opponents want me to wait until the second turn for Italy to even play a round. Fun city, here we come.

I still maintain a stronger Germany would have been preferable to a stronger A-H.

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Flashman
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Re: Italy

Post by Flashman » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:35 am

Powers should not be able to collect/build/buy until they're at war.

Every country had a peacetime establishment, based on a standing army and navy. Governments simply could not justify eccessive spending on military in peacetime.

When the USA declared war in spring 1917, and it had virtually no army - Americans would not support expenditure on a large land force when the country didn't seem under threat.

My solution is to allow the USA a one-off "draft" the turn it goes to war, in which it gets to buy (draft) infantry only at a cut price rate. It can choose to save money to buy other units if it chooses. Thereafter all American units are bought in the normal way.

Fot Italy (if it doesn't join round one) it is unfair and unhistorical that it can beef up its army and move units into position on the Austrian border while in effect invulnerable to Austrian attacks. Remember that in this war mobilizing your army (calling up reserves and moving into front line positions) was considered an act of war in itself.

If you go with neutral Italy R1 then consider Turkey neutral until its own first turn begins (it is therefore invulnerable to R1 Russian & UK attacks).

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