Historical Entry House Rules

Breaking away from the Second World War and paying a visit and tribute to the First World War. Coming this March, 2013
13Foxtrot
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Re: Historical Entry House Rules

Post by 13Foxtrot » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:37 am

Thanks Tavenier!

I did some minor fixes on portugal's entry thanks to Flashy!

Flashman, I'm still interested in seeing your version of the map!

13Foxtrot

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Flashman
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Location: Greater East Yorkshire Co-Prosperity Sphere

Re: Historical Entry House Rules

Post by Flashman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:20 am

I've done loads of variants on the map; latest project can be seen here:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/ind ... c=30553.15

13Foxtrot
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Re: Historical Entry House Rules

Post by 13Foxtrot » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Flashman,

When I click on your link there is no map! What am I doing wrong?

13Foxtrot

Coastcityo
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Re: Historical Entry House Rules

Post by Coastcityo » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:49 am

13Foxtrot wrote:Coastcityyo,

Thanks for taking the time to write your opinion. I really appreciate hearing from you! :D

In regard to the A/H forces on the Italian front. The Austrians Had totally screwed the pooch in Serbia having failed two seperate invasions all the while they were taking a butt pounding from the Russians which really restricted their manpower. One thing that is not taken into consideration is the mountainous terrain in the Alps and the Plateau/high ground the Austrians enjoyed while the Italians bashed their collective heads to no avail. Clearly, the Russian Front was a major problem to the A/H high command and luckily for the A/H forces, the Italians were just as inept as they were. This manpower shortage was a REAL problem and is the main reason for the Italians greater numbers. Also keep in mind that when the Germans showed up in that 1918 offensive and blew a 61 mile deep hole in the shattered Italian line, it was the French, British, and Americans that held the line. Yep, the Yanks sent in 3 divisions. When the combined forces crushed the central powers in italy, it was as much about a lack of supplies as anything that forced the Central Powers back.

So the question is, what do we do to make Italy stronger. Have you ever noticed that Rome is the only non 6 IPC capital? What would be wrong with raising the IPC value to 6? You could even make Sicily worth something as it is a full province and should be worth at least 2.

Historically at the begining of the war, Albaina is 2/3 occupied by A/H and it produced around 10 Batallions for A/H that fought til the end of the war on that side. I think around 1916 they produced 2 battalions for the Italians. Not very much. In our game, Albania is worth 1 point and has no military. In fact, there is no government other than that of the occupying forces. It was mostly made up of tribal forces seperated by rough terrain. Why Larry made this a place for the Italians to get extra troops is a mystery to me. So this place is kind of worthless in reality. If he wanted to help out the Italians, why not just give them the troops they would get from this territory and put them in Italy and add some points to Sicily and/or Rome?

The neutral thing for Italy is actually good in that they come into the war on their turn in the second round of play. They get to be the aggressor as they were in the real war. And the one turn of building is a nice added bonus. The thing is, A/H was trying to entice their Italian allies to help them and were backstabbed. With the rules the way they are now, they(Italy) get to be victims on turn one. So our gaming group brings Italy into the war on their turn on round 2 allowing them to have the initiative. Does that better expain this?

By the way as a further explanation. When Minor Neutrals join the war, such as Bulgaria or Romania. Their troops just appear and do not need to have troops from their side enter their territory.

Feeling the need to defend Italy again here. Just to be fair, every order of battle ive seen for the Austrian/German offensive had a ratio of about two A-H to one German division, including a young Rommel's Alpine Korps in the October 1917 offensive. The offensive began on the 24th, and ended by the 10th of November when the Italians had reestablished a defensive line. The Italian offensive of 1918 did include three US divisions, as well as a division each from Britain and France and Czechloslavakia, and fifty-one divisions from Italy. I think your combining the two events, as a sixteen day battle would hardly give time to move the Allied divisions into position to stop the Austrian offensive at the Battle of Caporetto. The two things that stopped the Italian collapse was the CP supply lines being so stretched after such a rapid advance. And, the Italian army remained somewhat organized, and avoided a complete rout when their lines collapsed.

As to making Italy stronger, I'm fine as it stands for Italy, as I understand the needs for game balance. I honestly think the two things to change instead would either be a weaker A-H, which would again be a game balance issue. Or, better yet as it is actually historical, would be to deny A-H the ability to declare war on Italy, and allow Italy to make the first attack when they wanted to. So, if Italy wants to attack R1, that's fine. Or, they can wait until R2, build some more forces up, and then attack. Make it slightly different from the US neutrality, as Italy would be considered a Neutral CP ally at this point. So, the CP cannot attack Italy, Italian units cannot move out of Italian territory (or activate Albania, but are free to garrison it if Albania is attacked), their fleet must remain docked, and the A-H fleet can freely move through the sea zone without fear of mines. This would be a balance issue, as it would allow the A-H fleet into the Med, to make up for not being able to attack their ally.

13Foxtrot
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Re: Historical Entry House Rules

Post by 13Foxtrot » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:11 am

Coastcityo,

What we do is bump Italy up by 3 IPC's. Sardinia gets 1 IPC, Sicily gets 1 IPC, and Venice gets 1 IPC. We also have Italy working as a neutral CP and building on turn one. On turn two, No CP's may attack Italy which during it's turn declares war on Hungry. This affords them the initiative. Additionally, since Italy had a secret treaty with the French, we allow France to move through Italian waters w/o having to forego the mines. This adds some other interesting things in which the A/H and Turkish fleets may move out into the central Med. We feel Italy should be a bit stronger than Turkey economically. But only slightly. Heck, you could easily give Italy a few more IPC's if you wanted to...

13Foxtrot

Coastcityo
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Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:24 am

Re: Historical Entry House Rules

Post by Coastcityo » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:00 pm

Honestly, I have no problem with Italy and the Turks starting point, as I think Austria-H is the problem. They start way too strong, and just keep getting stronger because they're surrounded by so many weaker foes and neutrals. To me, the real balance adjustment would be, cutting down the A-H starting army to Italian and Turkish points, and bumping up Germany even more to keep the balance. Seriously, A-H has the second largest starting army in the game, a good starting point for IPCs, and is surrounded by Allies or weak enemies or snacks. Historically speaking, IF this war had really only been Austria versus Russia, does anyone really believe Austria would have won? The Austrians could barely conquer Serbia. Handed Russia its only victory in battle. And, was overrun by Italy, after the Italians had finally built their army up to a reasonable rate, while still defending their battle lines against Austrian offensives. The whole point of differences in unit counts in this game is usually an abstraction of both size and relative effectiveness on the battlefields. Russia may have the largest standing army, but the Germany army is much more effective on the field of battle, and therefore has a much larger starting army. The relative strengths of A-H and Italy and the Ottomans at the start of the war was pretty equal all around. Turkey was probably the weakest of the three, and Italy knowing they weren't ready for a war was the true biggest incentive for them wishing to remain neutral. And that means, A-H could be potentially stronger at start, but not to the point that only the Germans have a stronger starting force. He'll, at this point in history, France was considered the near equal or superior of every other army on the continent. So much so, that Japan initially modeled their modern army on that of France, in the same way they used Britain's navy as the blueprint for theirs. Heck, you could chop he A-H army nearly in half, and it would still be one of the strongest armies at setup on the board.

Bump up the armies in Berlin, Hanover, and Munich to compensate. And then, Switzerland really needs some adjustment, or just totally becomes a Munich speedbump.

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Chacmool
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Re: Historical Entry House Rules

Post by Chacmool » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:27 pm

What about Montenegros (Albania in A&A1914) war entry in R1?
"Books and bullets have their own destinies"

Ernst Jünger

13Foxtrot
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:03 pm

Re: Historical Entry House Rules

Post by 13Foxtrot » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:49 am

@ Chacamool,
Montenegro sent around 40,000 troops to fight with the Serbian army and I suspect that part of the albanian portion of the map that Larry made encompasses montenegro. To be real, albania was 2/3 under the control of A/H and provided a Legion to them consisting of 10 to 11 battalions of troops to them. These troops served A/H till the end of the war. In the Italian 1/3, the Eyeties raised about 2 batalions. Not too much for eitther side. In our game, we make Albania worth 1 IPC and it has no forces. Basically it was a lawless muslim emirate with tribal forces that were seperated by the mountainous terrain.

@Coastcityo
In our games, Austria is stretched to the limit by the Russians and are tenative as they must prepare a defense for the Italian attack on turn 2. Generally the CP's need to advance by turn 2 and it's usually the A/H that takes the hit and the Germans try to follow up. This generally leaves A/H in a manpower shortage. In regard to the historical situation when A/H invaded Serbia, they actually only went in with half of their available forces. Attacking at 5-4 odds resulting in a Serbian victory. Basically, this makes the A/H go in with lots of troops. No one who is a student of this history will make that mistake and our players usually go in with lots of troops. Btw, Bringing Romania into the war on turn 5 further stretches out the A/H forces as they are desperately contesting with Russia and Italy! By the way, we make Bulgaria and Romania seperate economies with differentl colored troops. both of these countries each contributed 1.2 million troops each to the war. So, why do we do this? If Turkey or Russia go down, these forces remain as they had their own objectives and did not rely on their allies to maintain their war efforts. Turkey and Russia still use them as minor allies, but they keep their money seperate and build in their respective countries.

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