LHTR rules amendment...

Here are the Tournment Rules for Revised Axis & Allies
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Krieghund
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Post by Krieghund » Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:12 am

Larry, both the box rules and LHTR are silent on order of decision whether to retreat, and that's what led to this discussion.

Pagan, the only reason for a defending sub to submerge is if the attacker did not choose to retreat/submerge.
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BlackWatch
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Post by BlackWatch » Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:49 am

PAGAN wrote:I think Larry takes care of this completely.

---subs can retreat OR submerge WITH a full naval retreat

---destroyers present take away the ability to submerge

---defending subs can submerge during an attacker's naval retreat
-------odds are that defending subs will never submerge, but that's thier choice
.
It would seem that you are right on 1 & 2, but 3 should read:

--defending subs can retreat by submerging if:

a) there are no attacking destroyers present
b) there are still attacking units on the battle board, and
c) the attacker has decided not to retreat that round.

In pbem parlance, the attacker must pause and ask the defender each round if the defender wants to submerge. By asking this question, the attacker is confirming that the attacker will continue the battle if the defender elects to keep his pieces in play. (attacker decides first, but if he decides to stay, he can't change his mind if the defender then submerges his subs)

Thanks to Larry for settling the question of whether an attacking sub can retreat (by submerging) each round or only in the final round.
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Post by Krieghund » Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:16 am

OK, to sum up:

During the Press Attack or Retreat phase of each round of a battle:

1) Attacking subs may submerge, if there are no defending destroyers.
2) All remaining attacking sea and air units may retreat, including any unsubmerged subs.
3) Defending subs may submerge, if any attacking forces remain other than submerged subs and there are no attacking destroyers.
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Craig A Yope
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Post by Craig A Yope » Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:10 am

Thanks to Larry for settling the question of whether an attacking sub can retreat (by submerging) each round or only in the final round.
Did Larry clear this up?
No. I think I have no problem with an attacking sub retreating or submerging. Again, submerging is special form of retreating allowed to a sub (attacking or defending).
Is he saying here that the only time that a sub can retreat/submerge is when all units retreat? Are we eliminating the option of a sub to submerge in place in the middle of a battle while other units continue to fight?

Right here is an example of what may seem clear to all is not. That is what is so difficult about rules writing. Trying to cover all the bases can be very hard.

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Post by BlackWatch » Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:26 am

Larry wrote:Again, “Intent” – I don’t have all the rules of all the games in my head. The fact is I have rules that never came to fruition (never published) in my head. It all gets confusing after awhile. That’s why I love you rule guys and admire your work. Don’t get that wrong… when I write up a game I spend a great deal of time on rules rules. However, when I’m done, I move on to the next baby. I guess it may look a bit strange that the game designer screws up on his own rules now and then. Believe me, its not just rules that I screw up on a regular basis.


Yope
No. I think I have no problem with an attacking sub retreating or submerging. Again, submerging is special form of retreating allowed to a sub (attacking or defending).
Thanks for your comments.

Krieghund – my rules workhorse, or should I call you Krieghorse?
Hummm comes down to two questions…
As I stated above subs have two retreat options, move off or submerge.

Hummm I wish all the games had the same retreat system. I was not consciously aware that they were not until I was reading this thread. Too bad. I usually pick up on these things. I don’t want to complicate Blackwatch’s life. The LHTRules have got to stand as they are. They cannot be changed. We should always try to keep them as they were originally posted. With that said - I like version “B”. It makes more sense. The only thing special about subs is their two retreat methods. An enemy sub should not be able to submerge in the middle of his opponents turn. There are only two blocks of actions Attacker retreats –with all his stuff and then a defending sub can submerge.[/size]

Remind me… where is LHTR on this point?


Craig - this is where Larry cleared up what he wanted with respect to allowing an attacking sub to retreat mid-battle. In short, he is saying it can't.

However, even this statement needs to be modified to provide consistency throughout (to reinforce that you can never retreat from nothing):

"There are only two blocks of actions Attacker retreats –with all his stuff and then a defending sub can submerge" should be read as:

"There are only two blocks of actions Attacker retreats –with all his stuff OR (not and) then a defending sub can submerge"
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Krieghund
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Post by Krieghund » Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:01 am

Good catch, BlackWatch. I missed the "two blocks of actions" phrase - too early in the AM, I guess. So...

During the Press Attack or Retreat phase of each round of a battle:

1) All attacking sea and air units may retreat. If there are no defending destroyers present, attacking subs may choose to retreat by submerging in the sea zone instead of moving back with the rest of the fleet.
2) If the attacker does not retreat/submerge and there are no attacking destroyers, defending subs may retreat by submerging in the sea zone.

This eliminates the possibility of attacking subs submerging in the middle of a battle, which kind of gives defending subs a little advantage, since they can.

Is the above wording completely correct, Larry?
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Post by BlackWatch » Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:36 am

Assuming we have come to consensus on the idea that attacking subs can only retreat as part of a general final round retreat, I have started a new thread which looks at a rewording of the Step 7 rules.
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