LHTR Step 7 - Final Revisions??

Here are the Tournment Rules for Revised Axis & Allies
BlackWatch
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LHTR Step 7 - Final Revisions??

Post by BlackWatch » Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:35 am

In order to rewrite the rules, and so we can all see where it starts from, here is the current language for step 7.
LHTR Rules wrote: Step 7: Press Attack or Retreat
Combat continues automatically unless one of the following conditions occurs:
a) Attacker retreats;
b) Attacker loses all units;
c) Defender loses all units; or
d) Both sides lose all units.

As long as combat continues, and subs are present and have not submerged, repeat steps 2-6 (only subs will be able to fire in step 2 - all other opening round fire capabilities are for one round of fire only). If no subs are present, repeat steps 4-6. Each such set of steps constitutes one cycle of combat.

Attacker Retreats
The attacker (never the defender) can retreat during this step. Move all attacking land and sea units in that combat to a single adjacent friendly space from which at least one of the attacking units (excluding air units) entered. All such units must retreat together to the same territory, regardless of where they came from. The attacker may retreat only if enemy units remain on the battle board.


Air Units:
Air units can retreat to any friendly territory within movement range. A fighter can retreat to a friendly aircraft carrier or to a friendly sea zone, as long as a carrier moves there this turn. When you designate that an air unit will retreat, return it to the game board. It will retreat when all other air units finish their moves in the noncombat move phase.

Amphibious Assaults:
No land unit can retreat from the land combat portion of an amphibious assault. Attacking air units, however, may retreat in step 7 of the attack sequence. If they do so, they must retreat all at the same time. Remove them from the battle board and place them in the embattled territory on the game board. They will complete their move when all other air units finish their movement in the noncombat move phase. All land units must continue combat until at least one side loses all its units.

Submarines: Submarines on both sides may retreat during this step by submerging. Return the submarine to the game board and tip it onto its side to mark it as submerged. It remains submerged until the end of the noncombat move phase. (Submerged submarines do not stop enemy sea units from moving through their sea zone.)

Attacker or Defender Loses All Units
Once all units on one or both sides have been destroyed, the combat ends. If a player has units remaining, that player wins the combat. The player that has units remaining returns those units to the appropriate space on the game board.
Last edited by BlackWatch on Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
BlackWatch

BlackWatch
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Proposed revised language.

Post by BlackWatch » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:15 am

In addition to the following, the unit profile for subs will also need to be rewritten.

Step 7: Press Attack or Retreat
Combat continues unless one of the following conditions occurs (in this order of sequence):
a) Attacker retreats all attacking units;
b) Defender retreats all subs by submerging, leaving no other defending units in play.
c) Attacker loses all units;
d) Defender loses all units; or
e) Both sides lose all units.

As long as combat continues, repeat steps 2-6 (only subs will be able to fire in step 2 - all other opening round fire capabilities are for one round of fire only). If no subs are present, repeat steps 4-6. Each such set of steps constitutes one cycle of combat.

A. Attacker Retreats
The attacker can retreat during this step. The attacker may retreat only if enemy units remain on the battle board. All attacking units must retreat at the same time (except air units in amphibious assaults - see note below).

Land combat.
Move all attacking land units in that combat to a single adjacent friendly territory from which at least one of the attacking units (excluding air units) entered. All such units must retreat together to the same territory, regardless of where they came from. See notes below for air units and amphibious assaults.

Sea combat.
Move all attacking sea units in that combat to a single adjacent friendly sea zone* and from which at least one of the attacking units (excluding air units) entered. All such sea units must retreat together to the same sea zone, regardless of where they came from. See notes below for air units, amphibious assaults and submarines.

*By selecting judiciously the order in which he rolls his battles , the attacking player may be able to create a friendly sea zone during his turn. A sea zone that contains a submerged opposing submarine is not friendly.

Air Units:
When you designate that an air unit will retreat, return it to the game board battle site. It will retreat as a noncombat move when all other air units finish their moves in the noncombat move phase. Air units can retreat to any friendly territory within their total movement range. A fighter can retreat to a friendly aircraft carrier or to a friendly sea zone, as long as a carrier moves there this turn.

Amphibious Assaults:
No land unit can retreat from the land combat portion of an amphibious assault. Attacking air units, however, may retreat in step 7 of the attack sequence. If they do so, they must retreat all at the same time. Remove them from the battle board and place them in the embattled territory on the game board. They will complete their move when all other air units finish their movement in the noncombat move phase. Air units can retreat to any friendly territory within their total movement range. A fighter can retreat to a friendly aircraft carrier or to a friendly sea zone, as long as a carrier moves there this turn.

All land units must continue combat until at least one side loses all its units.

Submarines: Attacking submarines may retreat during this step by submerging or by retreating to the same adjacent friendly seazone as all other attacking sea units. They may not submerge if opposing destroyers are still on the battle board. The attacker may elect to submerge one or more subs, while retreating on the surface with others. Return any submerged submarine to the game board and tip it onto its side to mark it as submerged. It remains submerged until the end of the noncombat move phase.

B. Defender retreats subs by submerging

If the attacker has not retreated, defending submarines may retreat during this step by submerging. They may not submerge if opposing destroyers are still on the battle board. The defender may elect to submerge one or more subs. Return any submerged submarine to the game board and tip it onto its side to mark it as submerged. It remains submerged until the end of the noncombat move phase. (Submerged submarines do not stop enemy sea units from moving through their sea zone.) If no defending units remain on the battle board after this step, combat ends.

C, D, & E. Attacker and/or Defender Loses All Units
Once all units on one or both sides have been destroyed, the combat ends. If a player has units remaining, that player wins the combat. The player that has units remaining returns those units to the appropriate space on the game board.
BlackWatch

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Just in case you are wondering...

Post by BlackWatch » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:29 am

Why the following is inserted:
BlackWatch wrote: *By selecting judiciously the order in which he rolls his battles , the attacking player may be able to create a friendly sea zone during his turn. A sea zone that contains a submerged opposing submarine is not friendly.
The sole exception under the prosed rule from "all attacking units must retreat at once" is for air units in an amphibious assault. Consider the following:

There are 3 seazones in a line A-B-C

The attacker has subs in seazone A

The defender has a sub in B, and a fleet in C, including at least one destroyer.

The attacker declares an attack of air v solo sub (zone B), plus

Subs from A, plus air v fleet at C (the sub in B does not prevent the subs from A attacking the fleet at C - only a destroyer stops a subs movement).

If the attacker first rolls the "C" battle, he has no retreat possibility unless the destroyer is sunk or the attacker loses all his attacking subs.

If the attacker rolls the "B" battle first and sinks the defending sub, the attacking subs in battle "C" can retreat on the surface to "B".

If the attacker rolls the "B" battle first, but misses and the defending sub submerges, then the attacker has no retreat possible in the "C" battle until either the destroyer is sunk or he loses all the attacking subs.
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Post by Krieghund » Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:37 pm

This looks good. The only thing I can see is you want to make it abundantly clear that defending subs may retreat even if there are other defending units remaining. This seems a little fuzzy to me as it is currently written. Since attacking subs may only retreat when the rest of the fleet does (if there is a rest of the fleet), people may try to argue that defending subs can't retreat alone either, so they can't submerge until nothing else is left.
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Post by BlackWatch » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:11 pm

Krieghund wrote:This looks good. The only thing I can see is you want to make it abundantly clear that defending subs may retreat even if there are other defending units remaining. This seems a little fuzzy to me as it is currently written. Since attacking subs may only retreat when the rest of the fleet does (if there is a rest of the fleet), people may try to argue that defending subs can't retreat alone either, so they can't submerge until nothing else is left.
Ok, how about (boldface added text):

In addition to the following, the unit profile for subs will also need to be rewritten.

Step 7: Press Attack or Retreat
Combat continues unless one of the following conditions occurs (in this order of sequence):
a) Attacker retreats all attacking units;
b) Defender retreats all subs by submerging, leaving no other defending units in play.
c) Attacker loses all units;
d) Defender loses all units; or
e) Both sides lose all units.

As long as combat continues, repeat steps 2-6 (only subs will be able to fire in step 2 - all other opening round fire capabilities are for one round of fire only). If no subs are present, repeat steps 4-6. Each such set of steps constitutes one cycle of combat.

A. Attacker Retreats
The attacker can retreat during this step. The attacker may retreat only if enemy units remain on the battle board. All attacking units must retreat at the same time (except air units in amphibious assaults - see note below).

Land combat.
Move all attacking land units in that combat to a single adjacent friendly territory from which at least one of the attacking units (excluding air units) entered. All such units must retreat together to the same territory, regardless of where they came from. See notes below for air units and amphibious assaults.

Sea combat.
Move all attacking sea units in that combat to a single adjacent friendly sea zone* and from which at least one of the attacking units (excluding air units) entered. All such sea units must retreat together to the same sea zone, regardless of where they came from. See notes below for air units, amphibious assaults and submarines.

*By selecting judiciously the order in which he rolls his battles , the attacking player may be able to create a friendly sea zone during his turn. A sea zone that contains a submerged opposing submarine is not friendly.

Air Units:
When you designate that an air unit will retreat, return it to the game board battle site. It will retreat as a noncombat move when all other air units finish their moves in the noncombat move phase. Air units can retreat to any friendly territory within their total movement range. A fighter can retreat to a friendly aircraft carrier or to a friendly sea zone, as long as a carrier moves there this turn.

Amphibious Assaults:
No land unit can retreat from the land combat portion of an amphibious assault. Attacking air units, however, may retreat in step 7 of the attack sequence. If they do so, they must retreat all at the same time. Remove them from the battle board and place them in the embattled territory on the game board. They will complete their move when all other air units finish their movement in the noncombat move phase. Air units can retreat to any friendly territory within their total movement range. A fighter can retreat to a friendly aircraft carrier or to a friendly sea zone, as long as a carrier moves there this turn.

All land units must continue combat until at least one side loses all its units.

Submarines: Attacking submarines may retreat during this step by submerging or by retreating to the same adjacent friendly seazone as all other attacking sea units. They may not submerge if opposing destroyers are still on the battle board. The attacker may elect to submerge one or more subs, while retreating on the surface with others. Return any submerged submarine to the game board and tip it onto its side to mark it as submerged. It remains submerged until the end of the noncombat move phase.

B. Defender retreats subs by submerging

If the attacker has not retreated, defending submarines may retreat during this step by submerging. They may not submerge if opposing destroyers are still on the battle board. The defender may elect to submerge one or more subs, regardless of whether or not there are other types of defending units still on the battle board. Return any submerged submarine to the game board and tip it onto its side to mark it as submerged. It remains submerged until the end of the noncombat move phase. (Submerged submarines do not stop enemy sea units from moving through their sea zone.) If no defending units remain on the battle board after this step, combat ends.

C, D, & E. Attacker and/or Defender Loses All Units
Once all units on one or both sides have been destroyed, the combat ends. If a player has units remaining, that player wins the combat. The player that has units remaining returns those units to the appropriate space on the game board.
Last edited by BlackWatch on Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Krieghund » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:30 pm

How about "The defender may elect to submerge one or more subs, regardless of whether or not there are other types of defending units still on the battle board."?
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Post by BlackWatch » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:45 pm

Krieghund wrote:How about "The defender may elect to submerge one or more subs, regardless of whether or not there are other types of defending units still on the battle board."?
OK - I have edited it accordingly...
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Post by Yoper » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:58 pm

Is a sea zone considered to be hostile even if the only unit present is a submerged sub?

The definition is: Hostile- containing enemy units.

Submerged submarines do not stop enemy units from moving through a sea zone, but there is no direct prohibition on moving into and staying in a sea zone.

In the case of a sea battle that the attacker stays and the defender (made up of subs only) submerges, the sea units are in the same zone. What is the condition of the sea zone?

In the unit profile write up for submarines, it talks about enemy transports may load and offload there (the sea zone where the sub is submerged).

Put that together with the fact that a transport cannot move after it has unloaded its cargo.

I bring all this up to question the example that Blackwatch put forth in which the defending sub in sea zone B is not hit and decides to submerge. Then the attacking subs and air units attack the fleet in sea zone C. Why are the attacking subs not allowed to retreat on the surface to sea zone B?

What is the definition that applies to a sea zone that only has submerged defending subs and how is it different from a sea zone that has submerged defending subs and an attacking surface fleet?

Getting a definition for the sea zone with submerged defending subs seems key for then clarifying whether other units may retreat into this sea zone and/or move into it during noncombat.

If the sea zone with an attacking surface fleet and submerged defending subs is considered to be friendly (It is, isn't it?), why isn't the sea zone with just the submerged defending subs?

In my opinion, if the defending subs are submerged, then they do not exert control over the sea zone. Any sea zone that is not controlled by the enemy, can then be considered to be friendly.

Craig

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