"Multinational Attack"

Here are the Tournment Rules for Revised Axis & Allies
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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:22 am

Again, all this problems are a result of the different turns.

It must be All Axis turn followed by All Allies turn.

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Larry
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Post by Larry » Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:06 am

but it's not...

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Craig A Yope
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Post by Craig A Yope » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:40 pm

Guys,
I have helped BW with the editing work on all editions of the LHTR after the original was done. I understand his reluctance to keep going back and adding/subtracting to the rules unless there is a real big reason to do so.

But in this case I will have to go with the side that says put in a specific statement stating what the rule is (and fixing certain other spots like the ones that Badspeller has brought up). The simple fact that there is not a black-and-white ruling one way or the other will always lead to debate.

I am on the side of there being no use of or affect by the "allied" (ships allied to your side) ships in a battle.

The sea zones in Revised represent vast areas of ocean. As such, I think that the interaction in a battle should only be between the attacker (the active player) and the enemy.

Craig

trihero
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Post by trihero » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:42 pm

Yeah pretty please BW fix LHTR before my mind blows up T_T Wave your magic wand or something Larry too :x

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Craig A Yope
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Post by Craig A Yope » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:46 pm

BlackWatch wrote:....(and who's going to question the author in a face to face game?).
I WOULD!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

Demi-god status can only take you so far. :P :wink:

I am not going to let it slide if it means I am going to lose! :D

Craig

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Larry
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Post by Larry » Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:49 pm

Comments noted

BlackWatch
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Post by BlackWatch » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:42 am

Craig A Yope wrote:Guys,
I have helped BW with the editing work on all editions of the LHTR after the original was done. I understand his reluctance to keep going back and adding/subtracting to the rules unless there is a real big reason to do so.

But in this case I will have to go with the side that says put in a specific statement stating what the rule is (and fixing certain other spots like the ones that Badspeller has brought up). The simple fact that there is not a black-and-white ruling one way or the other will always lead to debate.

I am on the side of there being no use of or affect by the "allied" (ships allied to your side) ships in a battle.

The sea zones in Revised represent vast areas of ocean. As such, I think that the interaction in a battle should only be between the attacker (the active player) and the enemy.

Craig
Craig, do you have time to draft the necessary language and corrections? I have some RL issues going on now that have me preoccupied.

Thanks,
BW

Thanks to Badspeller for pointing out a specifically ambiguous piece of phrasing, and to all others who have participated in this discussion.
BlackWatch

ncscswitch
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Last thoughts on the multinational "attack"

Post by ncscswitch » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:37 pm

OK, I have been discussing this on another board for several days after running into the submerged German sub with UK ships present and a USA attack TWICE in my current game.

Originally, I thought as most folks here do... the UK ships (in the above example) are NOT a participant at all.

However, after reading Lary's posts earlier in this thread, and after playing Devil's Advocate on the discussion, there are a few things to consider before the final decision is made on a revision to the rules (a revision is needed, just a matter of which way it goes).

First off, there is the obvious point that all of the units are indeed in the same sea zone...
Second, there is the rule that specifically prohibits targetting a single nation's forces when the forces of more than one nation occupy the same sea zone or territory.
Third there is the rule that specifically states that when forces of more than one nation are together in a territory and take losses, the allied forces decide what is lost, and if they can't, then the enemy decides.
And lastly, it is my understanding (based on second hand data) that the A&A Pacific rules DO specify that in a case like the above example, the UK ships CAN be hit by Germany's sub defensive fire.

There is also ancillary evidence to suggest that allied (little a not big A) destroyers function at ALL times. For example the rules state that if a DST is "present"... not participating but "present". And "present" means IN the sea zone.

The rules allow subs to submerge.
The rules allow joint occupancy of a sea zone
The rules allow another allied antion to attack that sea zone
The rules specify that a single nation may NOT be targetted if more than one nation's forces are in a territory/sea zone
The rules specify that where forces of more than one nation are present, the allied player(s) choose the loses, and if they cannot decide the enemy chooses.

And then there is a statement (somewhere previous in this thread) that game mechanics (i.e. the use of the Battle Board playing aid) should not override the rules (invalidating the argument that since there is not a space on the Battle Board for allied fodder that it is not allowed). And note that in 2nd Ed there is no slot for transports for attacking navy on the battle board, but there was never a question that the transports could be taken as loses...

And lastly, folks have said that the rules repeatedly state that multinational forces can not attack together. This is true... and the UK ships in the above example NEVER FIRE A SHOT. They are NOT attacking, they are not defending. But they ARE there, in the same sea zone, at the same time.

And the allied player(s) should choose their loses.

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