"Multinational Attack"

Here are the Tournment Rules for Revised Axis & Allies
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Craig A Yope
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Post by Craig A Yope » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:04 pm

BlackWatch wrote:
If we are fixing the rules again, then the following also needs addressed (by badspeller):

**************

Making a clear statement would fix the confusion of these two lines.

LHTR page 20 under DESTROYERS>Special Abilities>(the last line of the paragraph)
"Also, enemy submarines cannot submerge while your destroyer is present."

LHTR page 21 under SUBMARINES>next to last paragraph
"The presence of an enemy destroyer in combat prevents a submarine from submerging....."

These statements make it sound like the presence of same team's nation destroyer HAS an effect in the seazone.
IF IT HAS AN EFFECT, THEN IT CAN TAKE HITS. If not, then their should be no effect at all of ANY kind.
These lines show that ALL destroyers effect the seazone.

***********

One possible fix would be to add the words "on the battle board" in both phrases, eg. "Also, enemy submarines cannot submerge while your destroyer is present on the battle board."

BW

How about making the statements more specific?

1)"Also, enemy submarines cannot submerge while an active destroyer is present."


2)"The presence of an active enemy destroyer in combat prevents a submarine from submerging....."

In both cases you are specifying that only those units that are allowed to be in the battle- the attacker whose turn it is and the defending units- can influence the movement of submarines.

Craig

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Krieghund
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Post by Krieghund » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:16 pm

"Attacking or defending" would probably be more clear than "active".
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BlackWatch
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Post by BlackWatch » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:11 pm

Another tack to take might be to go back to the opening section of Conduct Combat and re-write the following:
Step 1: Place Units on Battle Board
The battle board has two sides, labeled “Attacker” and “Defender”. Place all attacking units and defending units from a space on their respective sides, in the numbered columns that contain their names and silhouettes. The number in a unit’s column identifies that unit’s attack or defense value.


Change to:
Step 1: Place Units on Battle Board
The battle board has two sides, labeled “Attacker” and “Defender”. Place all your attacking units and all defending units from a space on their respective sides, in the numbered columns that contain their names and silhouettes. The number in a unit’s column identifies that unit’s attack or defense value. Place any cargo (whether your own pieces or an ally's) beside the piece that is carrying it. Remember that the cargo piece does not roll, nor can it take a hit, but is lost with the unit carrying it, if that unit is hit. If you are attacking into a seazone that has your ally's units present, your ally's units are not brought onto the battle board, but remain out of play for this turn
This goes back to a principle we adopted early in the process of rewriting LHTR rules - get any exceptions introduced as early as possible, and directly following the rule to which it is an exception.

If this language is inserted, then the language I proposed earlier regarding the presence of destroyers would also be precise. Only destroyers present on the battle board would have any effect on the ability of a sub to submerge. I am reluctant to use the word "active", because it then requires a separate definition, essentially meaning "on the battle board".
BW
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BadSpeller
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Post by BadSpeller » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:52 am

BlackWatch wrote: Are there other places that need to be adjusted to ensure there is no confusion anywhere in the rules about this?
BW
I'll work my way through my highlighted LHTR that apply to this subject.

-------------------
page 8 under COMBAT SEQUENCE
BlackWatch has addressed this nicely.

-------------------
page 9 under DESTROYERS AND SUBMARINE CASUALTIES
quote "If a destroyer is present in a combat involving enemy submarines, the destroyer's player skips this step."

recommend "If a destroyer is present in a combat on the battle board involving enemy submarines, the destroyer's player skips this step."
--------------------
BadSpeller

BadSpeller
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Post by BadSpeller » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:09 am

A side note example-
there are other times when ALL the units in a sea zone or territory are NOT involved in the battle.

page 10 under AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULTS:
the attacker retreats his air units
quote "Remove them from the battle board and place them in the embattled territory on the game board."
the battle continues without these planes (to be moved in noncombat).


page 10 under SUBMARINES
and
page 10 under DEFENDER RETREATS SUBS BY SUMERGING
quote "Return any submerged submarine to the game board and tip it onto its side to mark it as submerged."

here are 2 examples of the act of removing things from the battle board and returning them to the game board, because they are not involved in the battle.

BadSpeller

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Post by BadSpeller » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:17 am

page 10 under DEFENDER RETREATS SUBS BY SUBMERGING
quote "They"(defending submarines)"may not submerge if oppsing detroyers are still on the battle board."

and at the end of the same paragraph
quote "If no defending units remain on the battle board after this step, combat ends."

both of these statements are good and should be left intact, because the fully support the clarification.

BadSpeller

BadSpeller
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Post by BadSpeller » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:24 am

page 12 under MULTINATIONAL ATTACK

something needs to be added and/or changed in this paragraph

any suggestions for this?

BadSpeller

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Craig A Yope
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Random thoughts

Post by Craig A Yope » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:35 pm

I have started to go over this in the LHTR.
Quote:
Step 1: Place Units on Battle Board
The battle board has two sides, labeled “Attacker” and “Defender”. Place all attacking units and defending units from a space on their respective sides, in the numbered columns that contain their names and silhouettes. The number in a unit’s column identifies that unit’s attack or defense value.
Even before this statement, the very first sentence of Phase 4: Conduct Combat ( pg. 8 ) is:

"In this phase, you resolve combat in each space that contains units from opposing sides."

I can see where this gives the impression that all the units in an embattled space are included in the combat.

BW- If we stick with the idea that you put forth of presenting a concept as soon as possible, maybe a better/clearer description of the separation of the individual powers is in order.

We could put a more information on pg. 3 under the "How the War is Won" and "The Combatants" section to better outline the interaction between allies and enemies.


Another place where I have come across an interesting thought is in the Set Up section on pg. 5. Under the topic "Spaces On The Game Board", just after the definitions for 'Friendly, Hostile, and Neutral', there is this sentence:

"Sea zones are either friendly (contain friendly units) or hostile (contain enemy units). They are never neutral. An unoccupied sea zone is friendly to everyone."

An interesting question is: What is a sea zone that has your naval units and/or your allies naval units in it but also has enemy submarines that have resurfaced in it called?

I would think that it would be hostile because the presence of the submarines causes you to move during Combat Movement among other things.

Maybe this was answered when we clarified the sub rules earlier.

Just looking to clarify some thoughts so that it might be easier to rewrite the later areas that are sticking points.

Craig

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