Submarines

Thanks for your input todate. Here is a collection of my thinking at this point. Please feel free to participate in this on going discussion. Your contributions are appreciated. Tell your A&A friends about this so they have a chance to voice what they want in A-A&A. I'll update the the original posting as changes and new ideas are adopted or contemplated.
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Larry
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Post by Larry » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:48 am

Comments noted
Subs are and always have been a problem. Working on it.

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Der Panzinator
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Post by Der Panzinator » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:44 am

Seems like subs should be primarily an economic weapon. If you compare the amount of time subs spent destroying merchant shipping to the time they spent engaged in naval combat with surface vessels the ratio would be about 99-1 in favor of economic warfare.

At the beginning of the game there should be cards drawn with various sea zones. Each sea zone listed on the cards would have a merchant marine value which would be higher for the more critical zones such as those between US and UK. The players would have either markers or possibly merchant ship pieces that they would place in those sea zones. You would then collect resources or income each turn that the ships survived.

The subs would be fairly cheap to build. They should have no attack value against surface ships. If attacked they would evade. If hit, they could then fire back before being sunk.
Only destroyers and bombers should be able to attack subs and they would only have one round to hit or the subs will evade.
The subs then would primarily go out to the zones where the convoys are and attempt to sink as many merchant ships as possible. They would fire at a low combat value but each hit would be one less point for the allies each turn.
There may be a way to rebuild lost ships but would be at a cost they may or may not be recovered in future turns. Depending on if the replacement merchant ships manage to survive long enough to pay for themselves.

kurt3892
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ASW

Post by kurt3892 » Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:20 am

Submarine warfare...

This was a huge factor in the war and axis and allies as it is now just doesn't do it justice.

When the war started transports went out on their own counting on the 'vastness' of the oceans to hide them from submarines...this was soon to be realized a mistake and ships were grouped together under the protection of destroyers.

So when a convoy is attacked by submarines it boiled down to destroyers versus submarines. Obviously it became a numbers game...the side with the greater number of destroyers or the greater number of subs would have an advantage.

Submarines approaching a convoy had to get into position for a torpedo spread without being detected by the enemy. After the attack the submarine had to escape the enemy depth charge attacks and avoid being forced to the surface.

A successful approach can be simulated by a roll(affected by the number of destroyers defending the convoy). If detected then the defending ships would get the first strike but if successful the submarines would get the first strike. The submarines can stay and attempt to slug it out with the convoy for as many rounds of combat as they wish...but would receive no more first strike attacks. After any round of combat the submarines would have the option of submerging and attempting to escape. Again, a roll of the dice can determine success or failure. Success would be increasingly difficult as the number of pursuing destroyers increased but failure would mean being forced to surface and enduring a round of firing from the entire convoy. On the other hand the convoy can attempt to retreat after any round of combat with a submarine. Submarines had limited speed underwater and could not pursue a fleeing convoy unless they surfaced thereby exposing themselves. The retreating convoy would have to endure one round of attack from the subs without countering in order to retreat.

A problem in the game is the total domination of air units over submarines...the submarines being unable to counterattack. In the real war most airplanes had very little anti-submarine warfare abilities. I propose that a new unit should be created an ASW plane that would have the ability to attack subs...fighters and bombers should not have this ability...unless a submarine was forced to surface of course.

One more point...in the real war the occurance of a submarine destroying another submarine was unheard of...this should not be allowed in the game either.

I could elaborate more but this outlines the general guidelines of submarine warfare as I would like to see it done.


KURT

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Post by Imperious leader » Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:14 pm

Good i like that . one thought is to make the map is such a way as to recreate the "blind"spot in the middle of the atlantic and other places where U-boats had what they called "the Happy times" thie is the very large expanse of ocean where no planes could reach during the course of the war. Bombers should not be used against submarines.. Thye were used to spot ahead so convoys can be made aware of trouble so they can change course, or call fighter patrols. Fighters have limited range so they cannot conduct this "scouting " duty. Id propose that if a convoy wanted to move thru an area that was occupied by enemy subs and avoid the subs first shot , then a bomber would have to sweep over the area first ( if movement points are left then it can be used elsewhere) or the subs get their surprise shots the first round. If their are destroyersor cruisers to protect the fleet, then the subs first shot attack is lost on SUBSEQUENT rounds. Fighter should not be able to attack subs w/o destroyer being present and only on a 1/1 basis ( one plane can attack for every one cruiser or destroyer). I hope that other can critique this for flaws.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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Guerrilla Guy
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Post by Guerrilla Guy » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:35 pm

actually Kurt we ran out of extra units... I like the DD present for aircraft rules from AaAE...more realistic and makes DD more useful... unless ofcourse you add a air search roll (assumedly 2 or less...)

GG
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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:30 am

ALL PLAYERS MUST BE FREE TO USE THEIR SUBS IN NAVAL COMBAT OR IN ECONOMIC NAVAL RAID.

In all major naval battles both in ww1 and ww2 the Battleline had a close destroyer screen and a far away submarin screen. This must be reflected in the game.

Analysis of losses by cause: ww1
Gunfire 4
DD torpedo 5
Submarin torpedo 10
Mines and others 17
Total capital ship losses 36
"The sub stood revealed as the most effective challenge to the battleships traditional domination."
Richard Humble

Analysis of japanese warship losses by cause:ww2
Submarines 57 %
Aircrafts 33 %
Gunfire and mines 10 %

Submarines have always been a factor in naval battles, and this must be reflected in this game.

Analysis of use by different nations:

Germanys doctrine was to use subs in commerce-raids.
ENR: German subs sank 2800 merchantmen at 14 mill. tons.
Combat:Ge, subs sank 150 warships (7 capital)
Germany also used surface ships and bombers (FW Condor +JU 88) in anti-commerce. During D-day, the german subs "on station" in channel, did more damage than Luftwaffe.

USA used subs in both ways.
ENR:US subs sank 1000+ merchantmen at 6.5 mill tons.
Combat:US subs sank 276 warships (1BB, 7 CV)

Japans bushido codex put its subs againt warships exclusively.
ENR: less than a mill ton, because it had no glory.
Combat:Only a handful warships, because :
Supply: Japanese subs was used as supply-line to isolated islands.
SBR:Japanese subs sometimes had complement of floateplanes, that strategigaly bombed forests in Oregon (They hate campers)

UK had the best trained submarin crew in the world, but lacked juicy targets. Submerged UK subs did sink submerged German subs.

Sovjet subs sank 20 warships and 90 merchantmen.
Italian subs sank several allied cruisers, but no merchantmen.

ALL PLAYERS MUST BE ABLE TO USE SUBMARINS BOTH IN COMMERCE RAIDS AGAINST ENEMY ECONOMY, OR IN NAVAL COMBAT.

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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:48 am

Subs can be used in 3 different ways.

ENR: Work same way as SBR, first one round of ASW, then surviving subs roll aginst the convoy-zone for ipc-loss.

Sub-screen in naval combat, both attacking and defending. Use designed combat value. No hokus pokus.

On station. Work same as Combat Air Patrol. Ships moving into sea-zones with enemy subs face subs first shot sneak attack.

Subs can select enemy casualty with roll on 1.
Subs can retreat from combat by submerging.

Bombers need to locate subs by "Search roll" . Use D6 or different colour D12.
Fighters need matching destroyers. (hunter-killer groups)

Surface ships most important protection against subs was high speed, 30 knots +.

Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:42 am

adlertag wrote:Subs can be used in 3 different ways.

ENR: Work same way as SBR, first one round of ASW, then surviving subs roll aginst the convoy-zone for ipc-loss.

Sub-screen in naval combat, both attacking and defending. Use designed combat value. No hokus pokus.

On station. Work same as Combat Air Patrol. Ships moving into sea-zones with enemy subs face subs first shot sneak attack.

Subs can select enemy casualty with roll on 1.
Subs can retreat from combat by submerging.

Bombers need to locate subs by "Search roll" . Use D6 or different colour D12.
Fighters need matching destroyers. (hunter-killer groups)

Surface ships most important protection against subs was high speed, 30 knots +.
I can agree with most of this, except the bolded text. The sub screen should be treated exactly as subs "on station" - a single round of combat between the subs and enemy fleet only, then the normal battle excluding the subs.

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